# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 226
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4501 "2015-07-01T17:13:49Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So, a white man reshooting his murder victim, through the windshield = no threat. A black kid standing there for 2 seconds, dazed as the cop car races up next to him = threat. Again with this “2 seconds” lie. Do you really think that Rice couldn’t see or hear the car until it entered the camera’s frame of view? > [@](#): > > That is simply crazy. “Crazy” is blaming the cops for the crimes they arrest people for. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4502 "2015-07-01T17:14:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That is not how self defense usually works. Self defense is usually an affirmative defense. If you kill someone, you have to prove that you were acting in self defense. No, generally in America it is not an affirmative defence. Rather sadly, this case happened in the one state in which it remains so\*. Hopefully this case, and the attempts by people to make this cop prove his innocence, will encourage them to change that. Not that I expect any jury to disbelieve someone who says they were in fear for their life as someone was reaching for a gun as they approached, when there’s video evidence consistent with that. There will still need to be some evidence that it wasn’t self defence, and that’s not been presented yet. But the legal standard for the US in general, and undoubtedly the just and moral standard, is that one should not have to prove innocence in a criminal trial. \*I’ve only just checked this, and I’m surprised no-one’s mentioned it earlier. I falsely assumed this happened in one of the 49 states that accepts the right to self defence. [Cite](http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/that-odd-duck-ohio-self-defense-as-an-affirmative-defense-kind-of/) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4503 "2015-07-01T17:17:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!?!?!! > > He discharged a weapon while the cops were around, that immediately makes him a threat. > > Do you think that a black man who just killed his wife could survive an encounter where he shot at his wife’s corpse in the presence of police officers? Having the right to self defence doesn’t mean you are forced to exercise it. I certainly wouldn’t be crying any tears if that murderous cop had been shot by the other cops, though. Ooh look, I admit a cop did wrong - when there’s actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4504 "2015-07-01T17:18:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > He discharged a weapon while the cops were around, that immediately makes him a threat. Who did he discharge a weapon at? Nobody. Who did he point it at? Himself. Who was he a threat to? Nobody but himself. The police did their job correctly by talking him down from killing himself. Are you arguing that it was necessary to kill him to prevent him from committing suicide? > [@](#): > > Do you think that a black man who just killed his wife could survive an encounter where he shot at his wife’s corpse in the presence of police officers? If a black police officer who did the exact same thing behaved in the exact same way, and the cops who showed up at the scene knew him personally to the exact same extent that these cops knew this shooter, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4505 "2015-07-01T17:25:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The fact that cops shoot young black males disproportionatley compared to any other demographic group. Oh, and this? It’s because young black males are disproportionately violent, compared to any other demographic group. Including young black females, older black people of any gender, and young males of other races. Between, based on statistics in the other thread we had about this, 6 and 14 times more likely to commit violent crime than _any_ other group. So, obviously, the police will encounter far more young black men, and have good reason to be more fearful of them. > [@](#): > > There is a LOT of evidence that cops discriminate against young black males. do you really need a cite to the evidence? I’d need a cite that it’s based on anything more that the vastly greater likelihood of young black males being violent than any other group. We also need some proper research into _why_ that specific group is more violent, and what can be done about it. And we need that to happen without liberal idiots screaming “RACISM!!!” whenever it’s mentioned, as though that’s the sole cause, or even relevant. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4506 "2015-07-01T17:25:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Again with this “2 seconds” lie. Do you really think that Rice couldn’t see or hear the car until it entered the camera’s frame of view? And do you really think a 12 year old boy playing in the park who hears/sees a police car thinks that police car is coming for him? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4507 "2015-07-01T17:30:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A man who robs a convenience store and punches a cop in the face is not “peaceful”. > > A man selling contraband in broad daylight and getting physical when confronted about it is not being “peaceful”. > > A man brandishing a firearm in a public park and reaching for it when the cops show up is not being “peaceful”. Irrelevant to anything I said (whether or not any of this is true). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4508 "2015-07-01T17:33:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, and this? It’s because young black males are disproportionately violent, compared to any other demographic group. Including young black females, older black people of any gender, and young males of other races. Between, based on statistics in the other thread we had about this, 6 and 14 times more likely to commit violent crime than _any_ other group. The 14 times was made up – it was 6 to 9 times. 🙂 And per the numbers, young black men were shot 21 times as often as young white men. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4509 "2015-07-01T17:36:46Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > And do you really think a 12 year old boy playing in the park who hears/sees a police car thinks that police car is coming for him? A 12-year-old has the mental capacity to understand how to act in the presence of law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4510 "2015-07-01T17:39:21Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > And do you really think a 12 year old boy playing in the park who hears/sees a police car thinks that police car is coming for him? Exactly what I was going to say. He’s a kid playing in the park who suddenly notices a police car screaming up to him. So he does what any kid playing in a park would do. He stands there thinking “What the heck is going on?” I mean how many times can Smapti reveal just how far gone he is? Insane. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4511 "2015-07-01T17:41:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is there anything short of a confession that would convince you that the cops did anything wrong? I believe his “false memories” loophole covers that too. Plus, they can be coerced. The only surefire way to avoid a false confession is not to ask the shooter any questions at all, because that might fluster and confuse them. Just mop up the blood, pick up the shell casings, and wait for justice to strike again. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4512 "2015-07-01T17:41:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A 12-year-old has the mental capacity to understand how to act in the presence of law enforcement. So he would have survived if he had a real gun and would have been discharging it, as long as it was in a direction away from the cops? You are a horrrible, psychopathically deranged fascist. Insane. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4513 "2015-07-01T17:43:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I mean how many times can Smapti reveal just how far gone he is? Insane. Many, many times. This is the guy who [would not free slaves](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17719100#post17719100) in another country if he had a risk-free opportunity, and the guy who would turn in his Jewish neighbors if the government knocked on his door looking for Jews, and who believes “I was only following orders” is a [valid and reasonable defense for atrocities](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17715377&postcount=439), and who believes that [MLK Jr.'s civil disobedience was wrong](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17715412&postcount=444), and who believes that the _only fucking morally correct actions for a slave in the pre-1860s US was to [must suppress vomit] **[obey their master](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17715425&postcount=447)**_, and many many more… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4514 "2015-07-01T17:44:45Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So he would have survived if he had a real gun and would have been discharging it, as long as it was in a direction away from the cops? I don’t know and I lack the ability to stage a reenactment and find out. Are you arguing that a 12-year-old shouldn’t be expected to know that the police can and often will shoot and kill you if you act threateningly in their presence? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4515 "2015-07-01T17:45:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t know and I lack the ability to stage a reenactment and find out. > > Are you arguing that a 12-year-old shouldn’t be expected to know that the police can and often will shoot and kill you if you act threateningly in their presence? He didn’t “act threateningly” in the video. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4516 "2015-07-01T17:47:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not only can he reach it, but if the evidence is not strong enough to show a likelihood of success he must reach it. He can’t attempt to prosecute the case despite a lack of evidence just to prove to you that he’s not biased, that would be a breach of the defendant’s rights, and a breach of his duty to the public. > > You seem to want a trial no matter what. Which is disturbing, frankly. No, I just don’t want the district attorney to make that decision. Due to a clear conflict of interest, he is unable to come to an unbiased judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4517 "2015-07-01T17:48:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t know and I lack the ability to stage a reenactment and find out. > > Are you arguing that a 12-year-old shouldn’t be expected to know that the police can and often will shoot and kill you if you act threateningly in their presence? He should know that if he simply stands still, he can still be shot, and there will be depraved awful worthless racist shitbags on the internet who will say he had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4518 "2015-07-01T17:50:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > He should know that if he simply stands still, he can still be shot Cite for an incident where the police shot someone who was “simply standing still”? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4519 "2015-07-01T17:51:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The 14 times was made up – it was 6 to 9 times. 🙂 And per the numbers, young black men were shot 21 times as often as young white men. It wasn’t made up, it was cited in that thread. And I’ve still no idea why you would expect there to be a linear relationship, but we also established in that other thread that you have no grasp of statistics. Basically, there’s a good explanation for why more young black men are shot than any others, and it’s not racism. If it were, it would also be happening to older black men, and black women - and it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4520 "2015-07-01T18:00:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It wasn’t made up, it was cited in that thread. A source with made-up numbers was cited in that thread (for the 14) – the 6 to 9 came from government stats. > [@](#): > > And I’ve still no idea why you would expect there to be a linear relationship, but we also established in that other thread that you have no grasp of statistics. No, u 🙂 (actually, we established in that thread thanks to the input of professional statisticians that [it was you that lacked the understanding of statistics](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17930785&postcount=73)). > [@](#): > > Basically, there’s a good explanation for why more young black men are shot than any others, and it’s not racism. If it were, it would also be happening to older black men, and black women - and it isn’t. There wasn’t a good explanation for why it was 21 times (and based on your argument, it seems that 10,000 times would have a “good explanation”). But there’s no need to go through that entire thread again. In case anyone is interested, [here is the thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=741774&page=2) we’re referring to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=225) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=227)