# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 238
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4741 "2015-07-08T17:36:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yeah, when the cop ordered him to drop the gun, his hand moved toward the gun in his waistband. Righteous shooting. When the cop ordered him to _show his hands_, his hand moved toward the gun in his waistband. Self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4742 "2015-07-08T17:48:33Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Kathryn Johnston Shot first, whereafter the police had the fair right to shoot back. > [@](#): > > Accelyne Williams Died of natural causes. > [@](#): > > Annie Rae Dixon An unfortunate accident that occurred in pursuit of the crack dealer operating out of her home. > [@](#): > > Jonathan Ayers An unfortunate case of mistaken identity. > [@](#): > > Rodolfo Cardenas A wanted parole violator who lead police on a high-speed chase. Not “innocent” by any definition of the term. > [@](#): > > Ismael Mena Pointed a gun at the cops. > [@](#): > > Mario Paz Was reaching for a gun. > [@](#): > > Alberta Spruill Died of natural causes. > [@](#): > > Pedro Navarro Accident caused by police error. > [@](#): > > …how many cases would you like of police killing people who were committing no crime, in a place where they had a right to be? Well, you’ve got _three_ here that meet that criteria, over a span of 25 years. Meanwhile, the criminal element that you tacitly support with your anti-law-and-order agenda kills 14,000 people a year. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4743 "2015-07-08T17:50:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, you’ve got _three_ here that meet that criteria, over a span of 25 years. Meanwhile, the criminal element that you tacitly support with your anti-law-and-order agenda kills 14,000 people a year. And here is the repetition of the LIE. “Support Police in everything at all costs or you’re guilty of supporting criminals” Nope. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4744 "2015-07-08T17:53:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > When the cop ordered him to _show his hands_, There’s very little reason to conclude that this occurred – we already know that the officers lied (or told false stories) about multiple aspects of the circumstances surrounding the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4745 "2015-07-08T18:11:07Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And here is the repetition of the LIE. > > “Support Police in everything at all costs or you’re guilty of supporting criminals” The message you’re spreading is that police are evil. They’re corrupt. They can’t be trusted. They hate the public and especially minorities. They love to kill and maim people and will do so at any opportunity, even if you do exactly as they say. It’s dangerous to cooperate with them and it’s a better idea to fight back and run and kick and scream. You should never call 911 because they’ll probably shoot you or plant some weed in your car so they can send you to jail or beat you to death in the back of a van. And you should never even pull over for them anyway, because chances are the cop car was actually just stolen by a bunch of Bloods. And in the end, chances are that one night they’ll just break into your house and shoot you in the face 50 times for shits and giggles. What do you _think_ is going to be the societal effect if that’s what people are being encouraged to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4746 "2015-07-08T18:38:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, you’ve got _three_ here that meet that criteria, over a span of 25 years. Meanwhile, the criminal element that you tacitly support with your anti-law-and-order agenda kills 14,000 people a year. So you accept that it is a valid possibility. A Thing that Happens, if you prefer. By your logic, any remotely conceivable justification for cops “fearing for their lives” or shooting people is good enough. Therefore it must, perforce, be good enough for him too. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4747 "2015-07-08T18:49:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > So you accept that it is a valid possibility. A Thing that Happens, if you prefer. By your logic, any remotely conceivable justification for cops “fearing for their lives” or shooting people is good enough. Therefore it must, perforce, be good enough for him too. Shark attacks are a thing that happen. That doesn’t mean I’d be justified into tossing a stick of dynamite into the water before I go swimming because Jaws might be waiting for me. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4748 "2015-07-08T18:58:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Shark attacks are a thing that happen. That doesn’t mean I’d be justified into tossing a stick of dynamite into the water before I go swimming because Jaws might be waiting for me. Correct. Now apply this principle to the police already, and we’ll have made some headway into your pathological case. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4749 "2015-07-08T19:04:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Correct. Now apply this principle to the police already, and we’ll have made some headway into your pathological case. I _do_ apply this logic to the police. I have never suggested that the police should be allowed to shoot everyone they lay eyes on because one of them might have a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4750 "2015-07-08T19:25:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The message you’re spreading is that police are evil. They’re corrupt. They can’t be trusted. They hate the public and especially minorities. They love to kill and maim people and will do so at any opportunity, even if you do exactly as they say. It’s dangerous to cooperate with them and it’s a better idea to fight back and run and kick and scream. You should never call 911 because they’ll probably shoot you or plant some weed in your car so they can send you to jail or beat you to death in the back of a van. And you should never even pull over for them anyway, because chances are the cop car was actually just stolen by a bunch of Bloods. And in the end, chances are that one night they’ll just break into your house and shoot you in the face 50 times for shits and giggles. > > What do you _think_ is going to be the societal effect if that’s what people are being encouraged to believe? And here is the crux of the matter. Smapti HAS to believe that the world operates as he hopes - the alternative is too fear-provoking. I’ve come to agree with a poster upthread who questioned the sense in engaging Steophan and Smapti. Really, they will not change regardless of the context of the incident. The former is hopelessly racist and the latter is ill. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4751 "2015-07-08T19:31:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The message you’re spreading is that police are evil. They’re corrupt. They can’t be trusted. They hate the public and especially minorities. They love to kill and maim people and will do so at any opportunity, even if you do exactly as they say. It’s dangerous to cooperate with them and it’s a better idea to fight back and run and kick and scream. You should never call 911 because they’ll probably shoot you or plant some weed in your car so they can send you to jail or beat you to death in the back of a van. And you should never even pull over for them anyway, because chances are the cop car was actually just stolen by a bunch of Bloods. And in the end, chances are that one night they’ll just break into your house and shoot you in the face 50 times for shits and giggles. > > What do you _think_ is going to be the societal effect if that’s what people are being encouraged to believe? I have not in fact said any of those things. It is your damaged little brain that places those words in the mouths and minds of people who question the police. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4752 "2015-07-08T19:36:05Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And here is the crux of the matter. Smapti HAS to believe that the world operates as he hopes - the alternative is too fear-provoking. I’ve come to agree with a poster upthread who questioned the sense in engaging Steophan and Smapti. Really, they will not change regardless of the context of the incident. The former is hopelessly racist and the latter is ill. The alternative is a world where we don’t actually have policing at all. The idea that a handful of killings of innocent people - most of them accidental - should mean we stop trusting the police and instead embrace anarchy is absolutely ridiculous. Yes, there’s some things that could be improved as regards policing - but that requires the cooperation of the law abiding public. Not refusing to call the police because they’re scared, not refusing to help and work with the police on the grounds that you don’t have to and “my rights!!”. And especially not preventing the cops from doing their jobs, and preventing people from supporting that, by falsely calling your opponents racist. I _know_ you’re wrong about that, so it calls into question your other arguments - are they resting on similarly flawed reasoning and beliefs? Probably, yes. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4753 "2015-07-08T19:39:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The alternative is a world where we don’t actually have policing at all. The idea that a handful of killings of innocent people - most of them accidental - should mean we stop trusting the police and instead embrace anarchy is absolutely ridiculous. > > Yes, there’s some things that could be improved as regards policing - but that requires the cooperation of the law abiding public. Not refusing to call the police because they’re scared, not refusing to help and work with the police on the grounds that you don’t have to and “my rights!!”. > > And especially not preventing the cops from doing their jobs, and preventing people from supporting that, by falsely calling your opponents racist. I _know_ you’re wrong about that, so it calls into question your other arguments - are they resting on similarly flawed reasoning and beliefs? Probably, yes. Heh. I think there’s a logical fallacy in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4754 "2015-07-08T19:40:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The alternative is a world where we don’t actually have policing at all. The idea that a handful of killings of innocent people - most of them accidental - should mean we stop trusting the police and instead embrace anarchy is absolutely ridiculous. Just keep fucking that chicken. It’s been pointed out repeatedly that there is an entire world between those two points. You’re just being disingenuous to preserve your Cop Logic. Everyone is for or against you. If they’re against you, they’re in favor of every evil known to man, right? Because that’s certainly the way you argue! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4755 "2015-07-08T19:59:44Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Heh. I think there’s a logical fallacy in there somewhere. Only one? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4756 "2015-07-08T20:11:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The alternative is a world where we don’t actually have policing at all. The idea that a handful of killings of innocent people - most of them accidental - should mean we stop trusting the police and instead embrace anarchy is absolutely ridiculous. > > Yes, there’s some things that could be improved as regards policing - but that requires the cooperation of the law abiding public. Not refusing to call the police because they’re scared, not refusing to help and work with the police on the grounds that you don’t have to and “my rights!!”. > > And especially not preventing the cops from doing their jobs, and preventing people from supporting that, by falsely calling your opponents racist. I _know_ you’re wrong about that, so it calls into question your other arguments - are they resting on similarly flawed reasoning and beliefs? Probably, yes. Seriously dude, you can admit to the possibility that among the over one million cops in the united states that there are some bad apples, without having the entire country descend into anarchy. Our society is tougher than that. Not even the most anti-cop poster on this board thinks that they should be entirely disbanded. in fact most would probably agree that the majority of cops do good work, but that there are systematic improvements that could be made to reduce the number of bad cops But your knee jerk defense of anyone who puts on a uniform, even when there are clear indications of wrongdoing only makes sense if somehow by a mystical force the act of putting on a badge immediately re wrote their brain so that they were no longer capable of any act of immorality. If only that were the case. The problem is that cops are human with human weaknesses and foibles just like the rest of us. The difference is that they have a great deal more power than the average person, and so it is easier for them to abuse that power. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4757 "2015-07-08T20:50:15Z")
When the arguments for “improving” policing involve either making it harder for them to do their job, or more dangerous for them, then obviously people are trying to reduce the level of policing, if not eliminate it altogether. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4758 "2015-07-08T21:01:16Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Not even the most anti-cop poster on this board thinks that they should be entirely disbanded. This is true (and if I’m not the most anti-cop poster on this board, I gotta be in the top five…) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4759 "2015-07-08T21:24:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When the arguments for “improving” policing involve either making it harder for them to do their job, or more dangerous for them, then obviously people are trying to reduce the level of policing, if not eliminate it altogether. Not if it makes it safer for citizens. The safety of citizens outweighs the safety of cops. They are not equal, because cops voluntarily took an oath to protect and serve. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4760 "2015-07-08T21:28:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The safety of citizens outweighs the safety of cops. They are not equal, because cops voluntarily took an oath to protect and serve. Cops _are_ citizens. “Taking an oath to protect and serve” does not strip them of their citizenship, nor can their employer force them to give up their rights as a condition of the job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=237) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=239)