# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 240
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4781 "2015-07-09T10:53:32Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So let’s start with these two, and your original claim that “A law-abiding civilian has absolutely no cause or justification to be afraid of the police in any location where they have a right to be.” So which was it? Were they not law abiding, or where they in a location where they had no right to be. I can’t help but notice you deliberately left out the third and correct option - they had no cause to be afraid. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4782 "2015-07-09T11:00:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What you are considering is a dysfunctional police force that won’t be able to recruit enough people to do the job when they find out they’re expected to die in the line of duty and aren’t allowed to defend themselves or enforce the law against hostile subjects. I’m sorry; are you applying for the position? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4783 "2015-07-09T11:50:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I can’t help but notice you deliberately left out the third and correct option - they had no cause to be afraid. They had no cause to be afraid? Did you notice they were ever so slightly killed by the people you claim they had no cause to be afraid of? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4784 "2015-07-09T12:41:18Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > They had no cause to be afraid? Did you notice they were ever so slightly killed by the people you claim they had no cause to be afraid of? The former was killed in self-defense after she shot first. The latter was not killed by anyone - he died of a heart attack that probably could have been avoided if he hadn’t tried to barricade himself in a room, resist being handcuffed, and act like someone who the police would consider dangerous. They both died _because_ they acted irrationally and out of fear. A no-knock raid would certainly be a startling experience, especially if you’re not even the right target, but lashing out like a cornered animal is only going to make things worse for you. Just comply and think about the money you’ll make when you sue the department for false arrest. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4785 "2015-07-09T12:52:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A no-knock raid would certainly be a startling experience, especially if you’re not even the right target, but lashing out like a cornered animal is only going to make things worse for you. Just comply and think about the money you’ll make when you sue the department for false arrest. No. I am a law abiding guy. If someone kicks in my door I am going to defend myself on the assumption my home is being invaded. I’ll go down fighting, that’s why I have a shotgun under the bed. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4786 "2015-07-09T12:58:32Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Again, I apologize, I have not been tracking this thread closely because it is FUBAR. Can you point me? I am truly curious why you think Tamir Rice was a criminal. Smapti, can you please answer? I am not going to challenge you on it (though others probably will), I just really want to know why you believe Tamir Rice was a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4787 "2015-07-09T13:09:26Z")
While you’re at it, Smapti, kindly explain how Tamir’s supposed subtle furtive movement is justification for the cop to be scared and shoot him, while my door being kicked in is something I should grin and accept calmly. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4788 "2015-07-09T13:32:40Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > They had no cause to be afraid? Did you notice they were ever so slightly [mostly] killed by the people you claim they had no cause to be afraid of? **Miracle Max** : Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there’s usually only one thing you can do. **Inigo Montoya** : What’s that? **Miracle Max** : Go through his clothes and look for loose change. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4789 "2015-07-09T13:54:24Z")
[Iowa man takes **Smapti** ’s and **Steophbot** ’s advice](http://www.salon.com/2013/11/08/dad_calls_cops_to_teach_son_a_lesson_cops_shoot_son_dead/), thinking cops are here to protect and to serve. Cops shoot his son dead. (Nod to the bots: The son disobeyed police orders.) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4790 "2015-07-09T14:12:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The former was killed in self-defense after she shot first. The latter was not killed by anyone - he died of a heart attack that probably could have been avoided if he hadn’t tried to barricade himself in a room, resist being handcuffed, and act like someone who the police would consider dangerous. They both died _because_ they acted irrationally and out of fear. As apologists go, you really are a particularly vile one. With regards to Ms Johnston. These people fabricated a cause for a warrant. Having killed the woman, they then planted evidence on her. And you think she had nothing to be afraid of. You think she was in the wrong, firing a shot at people who broke into her house for no reason. You think she was irrational. The only thing she did wrong was miss. I hope they’ve suffered every form of hell in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4791 "2015-07-09T14:26:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The message you’re spreading is that police are evil. They’re corrupt. They can’t be trusted. Not all of them but the ones that are as you describe are protected their fellow officers and kneejerk law&order guys like you. > [@](#): > > They hate the public and especially minorities. They love to kill and maim people and will do so at any opportunity, even if you do exactly as they say. I think active hatred is very rare. I think subconscious prejudice is much more common. Many cops interact with young black and Hispanic youths very differently than they interact with white and Asian youths. google is my cite. > [@](#): > > It’s dangerous to cooperate with them and it’s a better idea to fight back and run and kick and scream. This is never the case. They have guns and you don’t. But when a cop throws a 12 year old in a bikini to the ground and then sits on her or shoots a guy that is running away from him (and then plants a weapon on him), it should raise some questions about THOSE PARTICULAR OFFICERS. Sometimes your defense is justified (e.g. the cop in ferguson became a scapegoat for deeper problems between the cops and the community they are supposed to be serving). > [@](#): > > You should never call 911 because they’ll probably shoot you or plant some weed in your car so they can send you to jail or beat you to death in the back of a van. I don’t recall when anyone said this. > [@](#): > > And you should never even pull over for them anyway, because chances are the cop car was actually just stolen by a bunch of Bloods. And in the end, chances are that one night they’ll just break into your house and shoot you in the face 50 times for shits and giggles. I thought the notion was that you should not pull over for ANYONE on a lonely secluded road in the middle of the night. You should keep driving while calling 911 to see if the car that is trying to pull you over is a real cop or you should drive to a well lit area where there are a lot of people. > [@](#): > > What do you _think_ is going to be the societal effect if that’s what people are being encouraged to believe? There is a lot of real estate between punishing bad cops for doing bad things and the breakdown of law & order. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4792 "2015-07-09T14:37:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The former was killed in self-defense after she shot first. The latter was not killed by anyone - he died of a heart attack that probably could have been avoided if he hadn’t tried to barricade himself in a room, resist being handcuffed, and act like someone who the police would consider dangerous. They both died _because_ they acted irrationally and out of fear. > > A no-knock raid would certainly be a startling experience, especially if you’re not even the right target, but lashing out like a cornered animal is only going to make things worse for you. Just comply and think about the money you’ll make when you sue the department for false arrest. I seem to recall some white dude getting away with shooting a cop during a no knock raid without getting shot killed or even sent to trial. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4793 "2015-07-09T14:53:33Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > No. I am a law abiding guy. If someone kicks in my door I am going to defend myself on the assumption my home is being invaded. I’ll go down fighting, that’s why I have a shotgun under the bed. You claim to be a law abiding guy, and also say you’d shoot cops executing a warrant on your property? That’s rather a contradiction… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4794 "2015-07-09T15:00:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You claim to be a law abiding guy, and also say you’d shoot cops executing a warrant on your property? That’s rather a contradiction… What could cause more legitimate fear for one’s life then a group of armed men breaking down your door, guns drawn? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4795 "2015-07-09T15:01:26Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Except, as everyone here including you knows, no-one is refusing to allow anyone to do their job. Not even close to it. All that people are asking is that the police don’t use a “shoot first, ask questions later” approach, of the sort demonstrated in the myriad of cases listed above. Or more accurately, a “shoot first, realise you fucked up, plant some evidence” approach. Nonsense. People are saying that you have a right not to stop for the police until it’s convenient for you, to refuse to move out of their way so they can do their job, and to refuse to identify yourself or answer their questions. In some, but not all, of those cases the rights do exist - but in most cases exercising those rights will make things worse for everyone - you, the cops, and the society that depends on people working with and supporting the police. > [@](#): > > And yes, all government departments with extensive rights to detain or even shoot citizens should constantly be prepared to defend their actions. This is a concept well understood since Roman times, so you should be able to get your head around it. Constantly? No. Regularly, and also in exceptional cases yes. Fortunately you’re in a democracy, so politicians (who control the police) are regularly judged based on their performance, and have to satisfy you to keep their job. > [@](#): > > In short, stop lying, stop playing sophomoric debating games, and stop pretending you’d accept British police treating you in the same way that US police routinely treat people, particularly if they happen to be non-white. Now fuck off and tidy up your room. If you think the British police will cycle up to someone waving a gun around in a public park and give them a cup of tea and a chat, you’re rather mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4796 "2015-07-09T15:01:59Z")
FYI to thread followers: [charges were dropped](http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/07/charges_dismissed_against_svsu.html#incart_related_stories) in the SVSU student DaJuawn Wallace case. Not surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4797 "2015-07-09T15:04:01Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Correct. > > And we are reconsidering the terms of their employment. Happens all the time in the real world. That’s not what’s happening, though, to a large extent. Shooting someone in self defence, which is what most of these cases are about, has nothing to do with their job, it has to do with their rights as people under the law. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4798 "2015-07-09T15:05:15Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > FYI to thread followers: [charges were dropped](http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/07/charges_dismissed_against_svsu.html#incart_related_stories) in the SVSU student DaJuawn Wallace case. > > Not surprised. I’m so happy to hear this! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4799 "2015-07-09T15:05:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You claim to be a law abiding guy, and also say you’d shoot cops executing a warrant on your property? That’s rather a contradiction… Only seems that way if you replace “unknown and unannounced intruders” with the phrase “cops executing a warrant.” Which presumes foreknowledge of the warrant from a guy _without an actual warrant_ against him. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4800 "2015-07-09T15:05:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What could cause more legitimate fear for one’s life then a group of armed men breaking down your door, guns drawn? Pretty much anything, if those men are cops. Because, unlike with criminals breaking in, all you have to do is follow their instructions and you’ll be fine. And in the rare event that they’ve got the wrong house, enjoy your massive payout. Or threaten the cops with a gun, and shoot at them. See how well you do in that situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=239) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=241)