# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 241
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4801 "2015-07-09T15:07:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you think the British police will cycle up to someone waving a gun around in a public park and give them a cup of tea and a chat, you’re rather mistaken. Somewhere between American police practices and cycling up with tea for gunmen lies British police practices, in which British police manage to kill [14,000 times fewer](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18461032&postcount=4066) people per capita than US police (while only having 60 times fewer gun murders). How are the British police managing to kill so, so many fewer people, even when the vastly different gun-murder rate is taken into account? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4802 "2015-07-09T15:08:30Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Only seems that way if you replace “unknown and unannounced intruders” with the phrase “cops executing a warrant.” Which presumes foreknowledge of the warrant from a guy _without an actual warrant_ against him. > > Idiot. No, it presumes the ability to notice the uniformed cops. But yeah, keep defending people who want to shoot cops doing their job. It looks really good… And you call me an idiot :smack: ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4803 "2015-07-09T15:09:41Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > FYI to thread followers: [charges were dropped](http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/07/charges_dismissed_against_svsu.html#incart_related_stories) in the SVSU student DaJuawn Wallace case. > > Not surprised. From **Steophan** and **Smapti’s** point of view: The horror!!! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4804 "2015-07-09T15:10:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Pretty much anything, if those men are cops. Because, unlike with criminals breaking in, all you have to do is follow their instructions and you’ll be fine. And in the rare event that they’ve got the wrong house, enjoy your massive payout. > > Or threaten the cops with a gun, and shoot at them. See how well you do in that situation. Except that it’s not always possible to determine whether they’re cops or not, especially at night, in the split-second time that the “reasonable fear of death” comes. Since that’s what’s important, right? Whether someone can have a “reasonable fear of death” in order to exert their right to self-defense and use deadly force? Are you seriously arguing that unknown armed men breaking down your door can’t cause reasonable fear of death? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4805 "2015-07-09T15:11:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You claim to be a law abiding guy, and also say you’d shoot cops executing a warrant on your property? That’s rather a contradiction… We were discussing no-knocks which apparently are often executed incorrectly. How does one differentiate legal home invasion from illegal home invasion in a meaningful time frame? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4806 "2015-07-09T15:14:28Z")
Either cops are unquestionably infallable or society falls into anarchy. Everything flows from that position. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4807 "2015-07-09T15:16:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not what’s happening, though, to a large extent. Shooting someone in self defence, which is what most of these cases are about, has nothing to do with their job, it has to do with their rights as people under the law. It does have to with the fact that these guys put themselves into rotten positions while doing their job–e.g. the Tamir Rice incident–and then are not held sufficiently accountable for the intentional homicide which results from the cops’ poor choices of action. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4808 "2015-07-09T15:51:45Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > We were discussing no-knocks which apparently are often executed incorrectly. How does one differentiate legal home invasion from illegal home invasion in a meaningful time frame? One wonders if the **S** twins understand how no-knock warrants are actually executed, or if they just don’t have enough social intelligence -or maybe enough mental acuity- to imagine a situation where they might be confused as to the identities of loud, violent and sudden intruders? Which would seem odd, as they are both completely empathetic with the Ohio cop who was fearful of a split second hand move made by a 12 year old he’d just [allegedly] screamed an order at. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4809 "2015-07-09T15:58:43Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Either cops are unquestionably infallable or society falls into anarchy. Everything flows from that position. And no matter how many times it is pointed out that there is a vast gulf between those two positions, they keep presenting it as fact. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4810 "2015-07-09T16:31:34Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Again, I apologize, I have not been tracking this thread closely because it is FUBAR. Can you point me? I am truly curious why you think Tamir Rice was a criminal. Pointing a gun at random passersby is illegal in Cleveland, Ohio. FYI - The Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner’s Office autopsy notes that the 12 yr old Tamir Rice was 5 feet 7 inches (1.70 m) and weighed 195 pounds (88 kg). The video shows Rice walking around the rec center, extending his right arm with what could/might/maybe a gun in his hand. (The 9-1-1 caller believed it was a gun, and a gun was found in Rice’s possession.) Someone had notified 9-1-1 that a black male was pointing a pistol at random people at the Cudell Recreation Center. Police dispatch told officers there was a male black at the Cudell Rec Center who was seen pointing a gun at people in a city park. That makes Rice a suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4811 "2015-07-09T16:41:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Pointing a gun at random passersby is illegal in Cleveland, Ohio. > > FYI - The Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner’s Office autopsy notes that the 12 yr old Tamir Rice was 5 feet 7 inches (1.70 m) and weighed 195 pounds (88 kg). > > The video shows Rice walking around the rec center, extending his right arm with what could/might/maybe a gun in his hand. (The 9-1-1 caller believed it was a gun, and a gun was found in Rice’s possession.) > > Someone had notified 9-1-1 that a black male was pointing a pistol at random people at the Cudell Recreation Center. > > Police dispatch told officers there was a male black at the Cudell Rec Center who was seen pointing a gun at people in a city park. > > That makes Rice a suspect. Fascinating. That wasn’t the question though. Do you understand the actual question? Need me to explain? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4812 "2015-07-09T16:46:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Pointing a gun at random passersby is illegal in Cleveland, Ohio. Do they have a law which applies to what Tamir Rice was doing? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4813 "2015-07-09T17:20:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > That makes Rice a suspect. You appear to think that “suspect” and “criminal” are the same thing, which would explain a lot. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4814 "2015-07-09T17:22:39Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > …I am truly curious why you think Tamir Rice was a criminal. (post shortened) > [@doorhinge](#): > > …That makes Rice a suspect. (post shortened) > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Fascinating. That wasn’t the question though. Do you understand the actual question? Need me to explain? Yes, I need you to explain your position. **Happy Fun Ball** asked why Rice was a criminal. I responded that Rice was a suspect. In the interest of good communication, which word(s) didn’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4815 "2015-07-09T17:24:28Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Do they have a law which applies to what Tamir Rice was doing? What do you believe Rice was doing which caused the eyewitness to call 9-1-1? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4816 "2015-07-09T17:25:11Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I am truly curious why you think Tamir Rice was a criminal. > > … That makes Rice a suspect. “suspect” == “criminal” ? What grade are you in, **doorhinge**? What’s your IQ? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4817 "2015-07-09T17:29:27Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > In the interest of good communication, which word(s) didn’t you understand? In the interest of good communication, Smapti labelled Tamir Rice a criminal. So the question was put to Smapti, “What crime makes Tamir Rice a criminal?” If you do not feel that Tamir Rice was a criminal, you may not be the right person to answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4818 "2015-07-09T17:31:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What do you believe Rice was doing which caused the eyewitness to call 9-1-1? Since you were answering the question about what makes Tamir Rice a criminal, it seems reasonable to ask you what crime he committed. Afaict, Tamir Rice was playing in the park by the rec center. I don’t think that is a crime. But, I may be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4819 "2015-07-09T17:32:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > “suspect” == “criminal” ? What grade are you in, **doorhinge**? What’s your IQ? Did doorhinge say that Tamir Rice was a criminal? Not sure why doorhinge felt the need to answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4820 "2015-07-09T18:02:39Z")
Lets try again. A flow chart of questions for Smapti and Stephan. \*\* 1. Is there something about becoming a cop that makes one fundamentally different from the population such that they never act in error? \*\* 1a) if yes then what is it and can we pass it on to the rest of the world so that we can have peace on earth and make paradise on earth for evermore. 1b) if no go to question 2 -\> \*\* 2) Given that cops are human just like the rest of us, isn’t it possible that out of over one million cops nation wide there are some some individual cops might act with poor judgement, or in a bullying fashion, or be racists etc.? \*\* 2a) if no why not? 2b) if yes go to question 3 -\> \*\* 3) Is it likely that there might be an overlap between those few cops specified in question 2, and those cops called out by the media as being bad cops, and so ending up in this thread?\*\* 3a) If no then why is the media catching all of these good cops and making them look bad and yet missing all of the bad cops. 3b) If yes, than why can’t you acknowledge in this thread that some of the cops listed did a bad job? Note I’m not asking if cops are worse than average person or even what if anything should be done about it, those topics are open to debate. I am asking you simply to accept reality. Out of over a million cops in the US some have not acted with good judgement, and these have made the news. Its like having a discussion about what should be done about the connection, if any, between Islam and terrorism, and having one side say that there have never been any Islamic terrorists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=240) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=242)