# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 246
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4901 "2015-07-12T20:36:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > This isn’t a matter of arguing that people who were killed were killed for justified reasons. > > This is people declaring that the police shouldn’t shoot to kill even when they _are_ fully justified in doing so. > > Your ilk want dead cops. That’s all there is to it. Nope. You’re incapable of rationally analyzing arguments that might suggest that not all cops are perfect and not all cop shootings are perfectly justified. It’s my belief that the current police culture and practices in many parts of the US might increase the danger to both the public _and to police_ – such that the positions you advocate will make for more “dead cops” than what I do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4902 "2015-07-12T20:38:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, we don’t agree. Because you still refuse to accept the explanations given, without explaining why. Neither do you. We both think there’s a non-zero possibility that these explanations might not be the only factors involved; thus we both don’t fully accept these explanations as perfect and final right now. > [@](#): > > I’ll try again. Why do you think the given explanations may not be enough? Why might we need other ones? Don’t turn this back on me, just answer it - you are the one making a claim, you should be the one justifying it. Because there is a non-zero possibility that these factors are not the only ones. I do accept that these explanations are involved, but as long as there remains some non-zero possibility that there are other explanations involved as well, then it’s possible that these explanations may not be enough. I think you agree, but if you don’t, what part of my words in this last paragraph specifically do you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4903 "2015-07-12T20:41:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Treating someone who is far more likely to be violent than anyone else as though they are far more likely to be violent _is_ treating them fairly. To treat them _equally_ would mean to either ignore the danger they present, or treat others _unfairly_. Now, maybe one or both of those is necessary - but it needs to be admitted to, and it needs to be combined with figuring out what is unique to black culture that makes their young men vastly more violent than anybody else. It’s entirely possible that there is nothing ‘wrong’ with black culture. If black people don’t have the same opportunity on average as others due to institutional and societal factors, then they will be more likely to be involved in crime. If black children see their peaceful and law-abiding fathers, brothers, and others hassled and abused by police, then they are more likely to see the police as their enemy. It’s possible that these things are happening today to some degree. I think it’s very likely that they are, since they did for most of American history, and since most black people that I’ve spoken to or heard from say that they are still occurring to some degree today. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4904 "2015-07-12T20:53:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s my belief that the current police culture and practices in many parts of the US might increase the danger to both the public _and to police_ – such that the positions you advocate will make for more “dead cops” than what I do. And yet, you continue to argue that cops should hold their fire in situations where any reasonable person would conclude that doing so would mean their own death. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4905 "2015-07-12T21:02:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet, you continue to argue that cops should hold their fire in situations where any reasonable person would conclude that doing so would mean their own death. No I don’t. You’re incapable of judging what a reasonable person would do. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4906 "2015-07-12T21:13:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No I don’t. You’re incapable of judging what a reasonable person would do. You are driving patrol with your partner. You receive a call indicating that a young male has been brandishing a firearm in a public park. As you drive up to the park, you see a person matching the description which you have been provided. You call for the individual in question to show his hands. He responds by reaching for a device tucked in his waistband which appears to be a firearm. What would a reasonable person do in response? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4907 "2015-07-12T21:23:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You call for the individual in question to show his hands. In what fantasy world is there good reason to believe that anything like this happened? > [@](#): > > What would a reasonable person do in response? Not drive up to within 10 feet of the potentially armed kid. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4908 "2015-07-12T21:38:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In what fantasy world is there good reason to believe that anything like this happened? Irrelevant. The hypothetical is occurring in a universe where this _has_ happened. Stop fighting the hypothetical and answer the question. > [@](#): > > Not drive up to within 10 feet of the potentially armed kid. Too late. You’ve already done so. Stop fighting the hypothetical and answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4909 "2015-07-12T21:45:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s entirely possible that there is nothing ‘wrong’ with black culture. If black people don’t have the same opportunity on average as others due to institutional and societal factors, then they will be more likely to be involved in crime. If black children see their peaceful and law-abiding fathers, brothers, and others hassled and abused by police, then they are more likely to see the police as their enemy. > > It’s possible that these things are happening today to some degree. I think it’s very likely that they are, since they did for most of American history, and since most black people that I’ve spoken to or heard from say that they are still occurring to some degree today. The 6-9 times more violent crime committed by young black men isn’t all directed at the police, so that’s something of an irrelevance here. My understanding is that the majority of the violence is black-on-black, and that strongly suggests something in black culture is involved. Which isn’t to say racism no longer exists, but to say it’s a major factor after decades where the law and much of society has been actively working towards equality is a stretch, and the suggestion that racism only goes one way in terms of causing problems is foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4910 "2015-07-12T21:54:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I do accept that these explanations are involved That’s the first time you’ve actually said that. Which is a start, but I still would like you to say why you don’t think they’re sufficient. I don’t understand why that’s apparently such a difficult thing for you to do, since you’ve repeatedly said you don’t believe they are. Now, if all you think is that they are probably sufficient, but there’s a non-zero chance otherwise, fair enough. But that would be a radical change in tone, at least, from earlier in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4911 "2015-07-12T23:32:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Irrelevant. Yes, your hypothetical is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. You are incapable of rational thought on this subject, and there’s no point in engaging you. I’ll just continue to point out how foolish and irrational you are periodically to remind others. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4912 "2015-07-12T23:42:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The 6-9 times more violent crime committed by young black men isn’t all directed at the police, so that’s something of an irrelevance here. My understanding is that the majority of the violence is black-on-black, and that strongly suggests something in black culture is involved. Again, not necessarily – if opportunity is not equal, then culture may have nothing to do with black-on-black violence. People are more likely to get involved with violent crime, whatever the race of the victims, if they do not have the opportunity to succeed in other ways. > [@](#): > > Which isn’t to say racism no longer exists, but to say it’s a major factor after decades where the law and much of society has been actively working towards equality is a stretch, and the suggestion that racism only goes one way in terms of causing problems is foolish. Why is it a stretch that decades of progress might not be enough to erase all significant effects from hundreds of years of brutal oppression? Notice the “might not” – no certainty here. > [@Steophan](#): > > That’s the first time you’ve actually said that. No it’s not – I’ve said multiple times (indirectly in posts 4902, 4882, 4878, and directly in 4875), that those explanations are almost certainly involved (bolding added): > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It seems pretty obvious to me that it’s totally reasonable for me to say that **"guns and gun violence are certainly a factor** , but there is a possibility that other factors might just be involved as well". > [@](#): > > Which is a start, but I still would like you to say why you don’t think they’re sufficient. I don’t understand why that’s apparently such a difficult thing for you to do, since you’ve repeatedly said you don’t believe they are. For the exact same reason you do – there’s a non-zero chance there are other explanations involved. > [@](#): > > Now, if all you think is that they are probably sufficient, but there’s a non-zero chance otherwise, fair enough. But that would be a radical change in tone, at least, from earlier in the thread. I don’t put it as “probably sufficient” – just “possibly sufficient”. We both agree that the difference in guns and gun violence are almost certainly involved in the disparity between the UK and US in cop shootings. And we both suspect that there might possibly be a non-zero chance that other factors are involved. I just seem to be a bit more curious, and I seem to think this non-zero chance that something else might be involved in the 13-1 vs 14,000-1 disparity is larger than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4913 "2015-07-13T00:09:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Again, not necessarily – if opportunity is not equal, then culture may have nothing to do with black-on-black violence. People are more likely to get involved with violent crime, whatever the race of the victims, if they do not have the opportunity to succeed in other ways. But poor white men aren’t violent to the same extent. > [@](#): > > Why is it a stretch that decades of progress might not be enough to erase all significant effects from hundreds of years of brutal oppression? Notice the “might not” – no certainty here. Blaming something that happened to your grandparents for your inability or unwillingness to stop being violent is not acceptable. > [@](#): > > I don’t put it as “probably sufficient” – just “possibly sufficient”. We both agree that the difference in guns and gun violence are almost certainly involved in the disparity between the UK and US in cop shootings. And we both suspect that there might possibly be a non-zero chance that other factors are involved. I just seem to be a bit more curious, and I seem to think this non-zero chance that something else might be involved in the 13-1 vs 14,000-1 disparity is larger than you do. Please, for the love of the deity of your choice, just answer the question. What is lacking in the explanations provided that means you remain curious if there’s another explanation? You are constantly dancing around answering that, for reasons that escape me. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4914 "2015-07-13T00:25:01Z")
I highly encourage Steophan to sit down with a large group of black men and women (hell, he can even filter for education) and work out with them why their culture makes police want to hit them so hard. It’d be entertaining and informative for all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4915 "2015-07-13T00:29:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > But poor white men aren’t violent to the same extent. Opportunity may not be equal between poor white and poor black men. > [@](#): > > Blaming something that happened to your grandparents for your inability or unwillingness to stop being violent is not acceptable. I agree, which is why I don’t think this would be part of the cause. If institutional/societal racism is part of the problem, it affects living black people as well as their ancestors. > [@](#): > > Please, for the love of the deity of your choice, just answer the question. What is lacking in the explanations provided that means you remain curious if there’s another explanation? You are constantly dancing around answering that, for reasons that escape me. I don’t understand – we feel the same way, except for the degree of lack of certainty/curiosity. What is lacking in the explanations provided that means you, **Steophan** , think there’s a non-zero chance of other factors’ involvement? For me it’s the size of the disparity – the fact that I know of no other human-societal-issue in which a 13-1 disparity in one thing can fully explain anything close to a 14,000-1 disparity in something else (can you think of one?). This doesn’t mean I am positive that there are other factors, just that I think that there might possibly be. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4916 "2015-07-13T04:42:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For me it’s the size of the disparity – the fact that I know of no other human-societal-issue in which a 13-1 disparity in one thing can fully explain anything close to a 14,000-1 disparity in something else (can you think of one?). This doesn’t mean I am positive that there are other factors, just that I think that there might possibly be. Just off the top of my head, your parents being 13 times richer than average could very easily lead to you being 14,000 times richer than average, without you having to have any other advantages. Being 13 times better at a sport than average would probably make you at least 14,000 times more successful than average, if it wasn’t that being 13 times better is probably a vast exaggeration. I expect almost any healthy person could train to be half as good as the world’s best in most sports. If you had an IQ of 200, let alone 1300, you would be the most intelligent person alive - a factor of 7 billion from a doubling. That you expect changes to be proportionate is the strange thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4917 "2015-07-13T09:35:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Just off the top of my head, your parents being 13 times richer than average could very easily lead to you being 14,000 times richer than average, without you having to have any other advantages. Unless parents who average 13 times richer lead to their kids averaging 14,000 times richer statistically, then this is non-applicable. I’m not talking about individual situations, I’m talking about a large-scale, population-to-population comparison. > [@](#): > > Being 13 times better at a sport than average would probably make you at least 14,000 times more successful than average, if it wasn’t that being 13 times better is probably a vast exaggeration. I expect almost any healthy person could train to be half as good as the world’s best in most sports. Not sure how this would be measured – if so, I’d need to see such statistics for this to apply. > [@](#): > > If you had an IQ of 200, let alone 1300, you would be the most intelligent person alive - a factor of 7 billion from a doubling. No idea how this applies or what this means – there’s no second comparison. > [@](#): > > That you expect changes to be proportionate is the strange thing. It would be a strange thing if I actually expected all things to be proportionate, but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4918 "2015-07-13T13:02:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If that were the case, then other minorities and mistreated groups would be more violent - but that’s not normally the case, it’s specific to young black men. And we know that men are more violent than women, and young people (as in teens to mid twenties) are more violent than younger or older people. So, it’s something specifically to do with black culture, not with minority cultures in general. > > Treating someone who is far more likely to be violent than anyone else as though they are far more likely to be violent _is_ treating them fairly. To treat them _equally_ would mean to either ignore the danger they present, or treat others _unfairly_. Keep in mind that this was written by the guy who has been howling in protest with tears streaming down his face that charges of racism against him are horridly unfair. “I’m not racist! It’s just that blacks are inherently violent!” ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4919 "2015-07-13T13:41:03Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Keep in mind that this was written by the guy who has been howling in protest with tears streaming down his face that charges of racism against him are horridly unfair. > > “I’m not racist! It’s just that blacks are inherently violent!” I don’t believe for a moment it’s inherent. At least, no more than all people are to an extent inherently violent, but for the most part don’t express it. But there is _something_ causing young black men to be many times more violent than anyone else (including other blacks, or any other racial group), and as predicted attempting to discuss it gets the usual suspects crying “RACISM!!!” without a single constructive thought. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4920 "2015-07-13T13:46:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It would be a strange thing if I actually expected all things to be proportionate, but I don’t. So why do you have a problem with the idea that a 6x change in one thing could lead to a 21x change in another? Or that a 13x change could lead to a 14,000x change? Constantly saying that it’s possible that they don’t, but having no actual reason to think that, is well into Just Asking Questions territory. I’ve provided several examples to show that it doesn’t work that way. You seem to be deliberately refusing to accept it, or at least unwilling to explain what your problem with it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=245) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=247)