# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 250
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4981 "2015-07-14T21:36:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I could say _the exact same thing_ to you. You could, but it wouldn’t matter, because you’re the broken one. You’re the one who is incapable of determining what philosophies are good for humans and what philosophies are not. > [@](#): > > Your philosophy enabled the KKK, the Confederacy, ISIS, and any number of other groups that have made the world a worse place. Just the opposite – my philosophy enables people to recognize when governments and authorities are in the wrong and must be fought. Yours is the one that supports the worst regimes in human history – you would have been a willing accomplice in the Holocaust were you a German in the 30s, or a willing slave-owner or oppressor were you in 19th century or Jim Crow South, or any number of loyal peons to the most terrible regimes in history. Your philosophy is incapable of recognizing bad authority and fighting it – and through most of history, bad authority has been much more common than good authority. > [@](#): > > The difference is that I _admit_ that my understanding of the world can be used to justify things I don’t like. You prefer to hide behind special pleadings and vaguely defined appeals to “human decency” to explain away the uncomfortable side of your worldview. No, you just don’t understand it because you’re a broken human. Maybe you never will. You don’t understand that people are capable of individually recognizing and fighting against bad authority, and since bad authority has always been with humans and probably will always be with us, this will always be necessary. For bad authority to keep power, folks like you will always be “necessary”. People who can think for themselves about right and wrong are anathema to bad authority – because most of them will come to recognize the same things: slavery is wrong, cruelty is wrong, torture is wrong, rape is wrong, speech-suppression is wrong, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4982 "2015-07-14T21:52:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You could, but it wouldn’t matter, because you’re the broken one. More argument from authority. You seem to be incapable of progressing beyond “This is right because I say that it is.” > [@](#): > > You’re the one who is incapable of determining what philosophies are good for humans and what philosophies are not. The only philosophy I subscribe to is that one should accept that which is _true_, whether one likes it or not. I refuse to lie to myself for the sake of my ego. > [@](#): > > Just the opposite – my philosophy enables people to recognize when governments and authorities are in the wrong and must be fought. If there were such a thing as objective morality, you would be right. _There is not such a thing as objective morality._ We live in a world where every man believes himself the hero of his own story, and has exactly as much reason to believe he’s right about it as everyone else. Your philosophy enables anyone to break any law at any time simply because they personally believe that that law is harshing their buzz. > [@](#): > > Yours is the one that supports the worst regimes in human history – you would have been a willing accomplice in the Holocaust were you a German in the 30s, or a willing slave-owner or oppressor were you in 19th century or Jim Crow South, or any number of loyal peons to the most terrible regimes in history. Mine is _true_. All of these things happened. I acknowledge that they happened. I acknowledge that my understanding of the way the world works allows the people who committed these deeds to justify them. If your worldview were true, none of these things would have happened, because the people involved would have _known_ that those things are wrong and would not have done them. > [@](#): > > Your philosophy is incapable of recognizing bad authority and fighting it – and through most of history, bad authority has been much more common than good authority. Your philosophy is incapable of acknowledging the validity of authority at all. Your philosophy posits that authority is fully dependent on everyone subject to it possessing the exact same moral compass of right and wrong that you do. > [@](#): > > You don’t understand that people are capable of individually recognizing and fighting against bad authority, and since bad authority has always been with humans and probably will always be with us, this will always be necessary. People are also capable of fighting against _good_ authority, and have always done so, and always will. What is a more stable and prosperous society - one such as our own which emphasizes the rule of law and provides outlets _within_ said law for people to legally challenge the status quo, or one such as we see in the Mideast and Africa where there’s a new bloody revolution every couple years because people feel like they can just overthrow any government that makes a law they don’t like? > [@](#): > > For bad authority to keep power, folks like you will always be “necessary”. People who can think for themselves about right and wrong are anathema to bad authority – because most of them will come to recognize the same things: slavery is wrong, cruelty is wrong, torture is wrong, rape is wrong, speech-suppression is wrong, etc. Except that, throughout history, that hasn’t been the case at all. The KKK saw themselves as resisting bad authority. The Confederacy saw themselves as resisting bad authority. ISIS and al-Qaeda see themselves as resisting bad authority. You insist on believing that the beliefs and values you hold are somehow special and universal because _you’re_ the one that holds them. They’re not. Social liberalism is a historical aberration - one which can _only_ exist under the framework of an authority powerful enough to defeat people who think they have the right to ignore its laws because they’re “immoral”. Your insistence that people have the right to ignore laws they don’t like undermines the very values that you claim to be fighting for. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4983 "2015-07-14T22:03:53Z")
Ignoring the fascist rantings of a broken man who defends slavery, condemns Harriet Tubman, and is incapable of lifting a finger to fight bad laws, bad government, or bad authority, and distinguishing them from their good counterparts. I hope one day you can fix yourself and recognize human decency. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4984 "2015-07-14T22:06:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ignoring the fascist rantings of a broken man who defends slavery, condemns Harriet Tubman, and is incapable of lifting a finger to fight bad laws, bad government, or bad authority. I hope one day you can fix yourself and recognize human decency. You may as well ignore this entire thread if the only defense you can offer up for your philosophy is that anyone who disagrees must be insane and evil. > [@](#): > > I hope one day you can fix yourself and recognize human decency. I hope one day you can _prove_ that which you refer to as “human decency” and explain why the overwhelming majority of human beings now and throughout history have not possessed it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4985 "2015-07-14T22:07:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You may as well ignore this entire thread if the only defense you can offer up for your philosophy is that anyone who disagrees must be insane and evil. LOL. Most of the people who disagree with me are sane and just wrong, and I can actually have arguments and discussions with them. You’re the only one who is broken. Just you, and no one else. Only **Smapti**. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4986 "2015-07-14T22:08:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just you, and no one else. If that were true, then this thread would not exist. There would be no controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians, because those law enforcement officers would possess “human decency” and know that it is wrong to do such things to people, and therefore they would not do such clearly indecent things. How does your philosophy account for the fact that this thread exists? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4987 "2015-07-14T22:14:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If that were true, then this thread would not exist. There would be no controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians, because those law enforcement officers would possess “human decency” and know that it is wrong to do such things to people, and therefore they would not do such clearly indecent things. > > How does your philosophy account for the fact that this thread exists? You don’t understand my philosophy and probably aren’t capable of it. Mine allows for nuance and adaptation, trusting that the more people that gain the skills of critical and rational thinking, the more people will come to a similar understanding of human decency (e.g. slavery is wrong, cruelty is wrong, bigotry is wrong, etc.). In the times and places in which these things were lacking, critical thinking skills were also lacking. In all times and places in which these things were lessened, critical thinking among the people was greater. I’m sorry this is so hard for you, but at least you can take solace in the fact that it’s probably not your fault. Whatever trauma you suffered, it’s not your fault that you’re so broken. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4988 "2015-07-14T22:16:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If you assert that it’s OK to break the law for no other reason than that you personally believe that law is immoral or unjust, then you’re legitimizing it for _everyone_ - you’re saying that the KKKers who lynched black people were just standing up for what they believed was right by doling out the justice that the immoral government refused to deliver. As moral equivalence fallacies go this one is impressively fucking stupid, base upon a degree of relativism that requires you to believe that there is no such thing as inherently immoral acts. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4989 "2015-07-14T22:17:38Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > As moral equivalence fallacies go this one is impressively fucking stupid, base upon a degree of relativism that requires you to believe that there is no such thing as inherently immoral acts. There _is_ no such thing as an inherently immoral act. If you disagree then I invite you to prove the existence of objective morality and claim your Nobel Peace Prize. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4990 "2015-07-14T22:18:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Mine allows for nuance and adaptation, trusting that the more people that gain the skills of critical and rational thinking, the more people will come to a similar understanding of human decency (e.g. slavery is wrong, cruelty is wrong, bigotry is wrong, etc.). In the times and places in which these things were lacking, critical thinking skills were also lacking. In all times and places in which these things were lessened, critical thinking among the people was greater. Then you _admit_ that “human decency” is a subjective standard. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4991 "2015-07-14T22:18:56Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > As moral equivalence fallacies go this one is impressively fucking stupid, base upon a degree of relativism that requires you to believe that there is no such thing as inherently immoral acts. Welcome to **Smapti** land. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4992 "2015-07-14T22:19:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The KKK saw themselves as resisting bad authority. That may very well be but guess what? They were wrong. See how that works? It doesn’t matter what self-delusions _they’re_ suffering, the real world still exists. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4993 "2015-07-14T22:22:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then you _admit_ that “human decency” is a subjective standard. Once certain shared assumptions are made (like “I want to avoid suffering for myself, and others also want to avoid suffering, and humans should generally act in a way to avoid experiencing or causing such suffering”), then no, a shared concept of “decency” can be reached and understood with critical thinking. But again, someone who thinks slaves should obey their masters and who condemns Harriet Tubman wouldn’t be able to understand this stuff. It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4994 "2015-07-14T22:22:14Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > That may very well be but guess what? They were wrong. Says you. They would say that _you_ are wrong. Can you _prove_ that your opinion is objectively more correct than theirs? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4995 "2015-07-14T22:23:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Once certain shared assumptions are made (like “I want to avoid suffering for myself, and others also want to avoid suffering, and humans should generally act in a way to avoid experiencing or causing such suffering”), then no, most of what decency is can be reached with critical thinking. “Once”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4996 "2015-07-14T22:23:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Once”. Yes, broken man. It’s not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4997 "2015-07-14T22:27:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, broken man. If you were correct, then I would not be what you refer to as “broken”. My existence refutes you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4998 "2015-07-14T22:28:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If you were correct, then I would not be what you refer to as “broken”. > > My existence refutes you. No (you still aren’t capable of understanding), because the trauma you’ve endured (it’s not your fault) means that you’re incapable of the skills that my philosophy supports and requires. Most people have this capability, but you don’t. I’m sorry, and it’s not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/4999 "2015-07-14T22:30:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most people have this capability, but you don’t. And yet, “most people”, out of the 7.5 billion people in the world, do not live in a country that abides by what you call “human decency”, nor do they subscribe to a philosophy that you declare is mandated by “human decency”. Why does the majority of the human race lack human decency? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5000 "2015-07-14T22:34:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet, “most people”, out of the 7.5 billion people in the world, do not live in a country that abides by what you call “human decency”, nor do they subscribe to a philosophy that you declare is mandated by “human decency”. > > Why does the majority of the human race lack human decency? Most people in this thread have the capability to understand it, and the capability to learn critical thinking if they don’t already have those skills. Many or most people in the world might not have those skills but they are capable of learning them and capable of understanding them, and more and more people around the world are learning these skills every year. That’s why, despite all the suffering, in general the world is becoming a better and more just place, with less suffering than before. You are not. You are lacking something, and I’m not sure if you can fix it. I’m sorry, and it’s not your fault, whatever you endured. You didn’t cause whatever has damaged you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=249) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=251)