# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 251
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5001 "2015-07-14T22:38:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most people in this thread have the capability to understand it “People in this thread” != “the human race”. > [@](#): > > You are not. You are lacking something, and I’m not sure if you can fix it. I’m sorry, and it’s not your fault, whatever you endured. You didn’t cause whatever has damaged you. This is all you’ve got left. “You’re only disagreeing with me because you’re mentally ill or stupid, and so is everyone else in the world; if only they had the benefit of the skills I possess, they would all agree with me”. You may as well be shouting about how we need to let the Holy Spirit fill our hearts, for how evidence-free and dogmatic your meaningless proclamations have become. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5002 "2015-07-14T22:42:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > This is all you’ve got left. “You’re only disagreeing with me because you’re mentally ill or stupid, and so is everyone else in the world; if only they had the benefit of the skills I possess, they would all agree with me”. > > You may as well be shouting about how we need to let the Holy Spirit fill our hearts, for how evidence-free and dogmatic your meaningless proclamations have become. Only to you, broken man. I’m very sorry. It’s not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5003 "2015-07-15T01:28:11Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > **Steophan** , please provide your non-racist explanation for how black culture makes black men more violent. You ignored it last time I posted it, instead talking about what happens to black people after they’ve become criminals. Here it is again. > [@Steophan](#): > > But the short answer is there’s a culture with few good male role models, and a lack of respect for law and society. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5004 "2015-07-15T02:13:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You ignored it last time I posted it, instead talking about what happens to black people after they’ve become criminals. Here it is again. No, I didn’t ignore it. It’s just poorly written in a passive manner, and I want you to make it clear. What is it that, in your opinion, is special to black people that causes them in particular to have a “culture with few good male role models, and a lack of respect for law and society.” ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5005 "2015-07-15T04:13:42Z")
[**Gardena police shooting video: Justified or ‘cold-blooded’ killing?**](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gardena-police-shooting-video-justified-or-cold-blooded-killing-20150714-story.html) I’m going to go with yet another “legal murder.” ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5006 "2015-07-15T04:41:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > No, I didn’t ignore it. It’s just poorly written in a passive manner, and I want you to make it clear. > > What is it that, in your opinion, is special to black people that causes them in particular to have a “culture with few good male role models, and a lack of respect for law and society.” I don’t think there’s anything special (good or bad) about black people. That’s why I think it’s the culture that’s an issue, not something inherent to the people. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5007 "2015-07-15T05:44:39Z")
> [@OwnRules](#): > > [**Gardena police shooting video: Justified or ‘cold-blooded’ killing?**](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gardena-police-shooting-video-justified-or-cold-blooded-killing-20150714-story.html) > > I’m going to go with yet another “legal murder.” Oooh, how are the **S** - boys gon’ justify that’un ? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5008 "2015-07-15T06:08:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There _is_ no such thing as an inherently immoral act. Yes, you have claimed that you believe that. But then again you also claim that slaves would be immoral to try to free themselves, so I’m pretty happy wagering just whose position is untenable here. I mean, I could rattle off an entire pile of acts that by their very nature are evil; genocide; raping a toddler; random acts of murder…but I highly suspect that you would argue that there’s nothing inherently immoral about them. Whether this is just you posing for effect, of whether iiandyiii is correct that you’re just a broken shell of a person, well that’s a trickier question to answer, and frankly it doesn’t matter either way. Whether this is a construct, or actually is who you are, either way it’s sad beyond measure. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5009 "2015-07-15T08:09:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oooh, how are the **S** - boys gon’ justify that’un ? Well, the cops used the magic get-out-of-jail-free words: > [@](#): > > the officers could not see Diaz Zeferino’s right hand as he dropped it toward his waistband and “believed he was going to reach for a weapon.” Also, one of them had a hat in his hand. A hat! [https://youtu.be/AXZL2fmptkU](https://youtu.be/AXZL2fmptkU) See how dangerous that thing is? Gotta be a justified shooting! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5010 "2015-07-15T08:41:41Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > Well, the cops used the magic get-out-of-jail-free words: Yeah, but um… that’s not what happens in the video. No hands go nowhere near no waistband. His hands flop down to his sides. He’s definitely not quickdrawing his six-shooter. And while he \*did \*pick something out of his back pocket to throw on the ground in what I assume his drunk ass thought was a surreptitious manner, it’s quite obviously him getting rid of drugs which a) is no capital offence and b) is something beat cops must see five times a day. All this over a stolen bicycle, too. Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5011 "2015-07-15T10:51:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything special (good or bad) about black people. That’s why I think it’s the culture that’s an issue, not something inherent to the people. Where does culture come from, if not the people? You’re trying to say that black people differ from white people in their law abidingness and esponsible fatherhood which.somehow makes them more violent without wanting to accept how racist that is, and for some reason rejecting the explanation that is both more parsimonious AND empirically supported. You do know that adding “but it isn’t genetic” to the end of what you say doesn’t make it less horrifically racist, right? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5012 "2015-07-15T11:14:20Z")
No, I’m not saying that black _people_ differ from others at all. That you consider what I am saying to be racist just shows that you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about, and have no interest in actually looking at what’s going on to try to solve it. If there _was_ an explanation for why young black men are several times more violent than anyone else that was both parsimonious and emprically supported I’d obviously be inclined to believe it. In fact, I’m of the opinion that I’ve supplied such an explanation - something you’ve yet to do. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5013 "2015-07-15T11:20:34Z")
> [@OwnRules](#): > > [**Gardena police shooting video: Justified or ‘cold-blooded’ killing?**](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gardena-police-shooting-video-justified-or-cold-blooded-killing-20150714-story.html) > > I’m going to go with yet another “legal murder.” > [@](#): > > judge’s decision to release the tape capped months of legal battles, with the city fighting to keep the tape private. Ha Ha! /Nelson ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5014 "2015-07-15T12:24:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m not saying that black _people_ differ from others at all. That you consider what I am saying to be racist just shows that you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about, and have no interest in actually looking at what’s going on to try to solve it. > > If there _was_ an explanation for why young black men are several times more violent than anyone else that was both parsimonious and emprically supported I’d obviously be inclined to believe it. In fact, I’m of the opinion that I’ve supplied such an explanation - something you’ve yet to do. I have. Several times. Why have you missed it? Is it too cognitively or emotionally discordant with what you want to be true? Socioeconomic disadvantage and systemic institutional and interpersonal racism. Empirical support for these factors is not in dispute. Now, let’s consider your theoretical model. 1. You observe an outcome of elevated violent behavior among African American men. 2. You posit that the explanation is that, speaking passively, “a culture” exists in which intact families and law abiding behavior are not encouraged. 3. You deny broader US socioeconomic causes. 4. You claim you are not suggesting that black and white people differ. If black and white people do not differ in the cause, how can they differ in the outcome? Your own model is inherently unable to explain differential outcomes. It includes no mechanism that would lead to variations in the outcomes. Yet, you also deny inherent exogenous differences as well. You’re just a moron who has painted himself into a corner by wanting to claim black people have lower positive values (in this case, family and law) while also somehow denying racism. You can’t even fashion a coherent set of connections among constructs and mechanisms in your own model. Just another stupid racist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5015 "2015-07-15T12:51:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I have. Several times. Why have you missed it? Is it too cognitively or emotionally discordant with what you want to be true? Socioeconomic disadvantage and systemic institutional and interpersonal racism. Empirical support for these factors is not in dispute. Black people are not unique in being disadvantaged or discriminate against. So, there is presumably more to it than that. > [@](#): > > You’re just a moron who has painted himself into a corner by wanting to claim black people have lower positive values (in this case, family and law) while also somehow denying racism. Nope. Not making any statements about black people. As usual, you’ve decided in advance that I’m being racist, and are contorting everything to fit that view. As I said before, you are unable to argue in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5016 "2015-07-15T13:07:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Black people are not unique in being disadvantaged or discriminate against. So, there is presumably more to it than that. > > Nope. Not making any statements about black people. As usual, you’ve decided in advance that I’m being racist, and are contorting everything to fit that view. As I said before, you are unable to argue in good faith. So explain yourself! Same causes, different outcomes? What’s your mechanism, idiot? At what point does some difference occur to explain differential outcome? You can keep running away by crying “bad faith,” but it’s clear to everyone that this is just straight up evasion. ETA besides which, your statement that black people are not unique in the US in their experience of discrimination and disadvantage is just fucking laughable and ignorant. Hell, this thread is a detailed accounting of just that. ---
**Author:** ![JVDaly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@JVDaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JVDaly)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5017 "2015-07-15T13:56:05Z")
I’d just like to say **Smapti’s** worldview is absolutely fascinating. Abhorrent, obviously, but still, fascinating. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered such an extreme proponent of authoritarianism. I’ve talked to people who proudly self-identify as honest-to-God fascists and even they wouldn’t go as far as he does. Incredible… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5018 "2015-07-15T14:28:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Black people are not unique in being disadvantaged or discriminate against. So, there is presumably more to it than that. Should the police get more leeway in questioning Chinese suspects, what with them being all inscrutable and all? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5019 "2015-07-15T16:03:27Z")
> [@JVDaly](#): > > I’d just like to say **Smapti’s** worldview is absolutely fascinating. Abhorrent, obviously, but still, fascinating. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered such an extreme proponent of authoritarianism. I’ve talked to people who proudly self-identify as honest-to-God fascists and even they wouldn’t go as far as he does. Incredible… He is grotesque, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5020 "2015-07-15T16:22:51Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So explain yourself! Same causes, different outcomes? What’s your mechanism, idiot? At what point does some difference occur to explain differential outcome? > > You can keep running away by crying “bad faith,” but it’s clear to everyone that this is just straight up evasion. > > ETA besides which, your statement that black people are not unique in the US in their experience of discrimination and disadvantage is just fucking laughable and ignorant. Hell, this thread is a detailed accounting of just that. Oh those crazy black people, if they hadn’t got themselves all wrapped in chains and shipped across the Atlantic … they’ve only themselves to blame. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=250) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=252)