# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 252
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5021 "2015-07-15T16:57:22Z")
> [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](#): > > Oh those crazy black people, if they hadn’t got themselves all wrapped in chains and shipped across the Atlantic … they’ve only themselves to blame. :rolleyes: Are you suggesting that groups of Africans, operating on the continent of Africa, raided African villages in order to capture fellow Africans, who were then to be used as slaves, and to be sold as slaves? That is cRaZy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5022 "2015-07-15T16:58:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you suggesting that groups of Africans, operating on the continent of Africa, raided African villages in order to capture fellow Africans, who were then to be used as slaves, and to be sold as slaves? That is cRaZy. ??? What does this have to do with any part of this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5023 "2015-07-15T17:07:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you suggesting that groups of Africans, operating on the continent of Africa, raided African villages in order to capture fellow Africans, who were then to be used as slaves, and to be sold as slaves? That is cRaZy. Of course, they only did so upon prompting from Europeans. A lot of prompting. With guns. Slavery had always been a byproduct of warfare in Africa (and, really, in the Ancient world period) but the dawn of slavery as an Institution with a capital\*\* I\*\* not only kicked it into overdrive, it also transformed its very nature - the type of chattel slavery that took place in the Americas and West Indies had very, very little in common with the more “benign” form of slavery practiced until then. Which was bad, but not quite Shoah-level horrible. \*That \*took White Man’s Ingenuity. Fact is, in Africa and the Muslim world prior to European involvment, many “slaves” wound up wielding the highest levels of political power for example ; and plenty were educated. And the numbers involved were nothing alike, of course. TL;DR : fuck off, you disingenuous race-baiting prick. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5024 "2015-07-15T17:24:01Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I mean, I could rattle off an entire pile of acts that by their very nature are evil; genocide; raping a toddler; random acts of murder…but I highly suspect that you would argue that there’s nothing inherently immoral about them. I would certainly agree that all those things are bad, distasteful, and should not be permitted. But they’re not “inherently immoral”, because there is quite simply no such thing as “inherent morality”. Right and wrong are not some inherent quality of the universe or some dictate handed down by a supernatural being - they’re man-made abstractions for the things we’ve decided we do and don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5025 "2015-07-15T17:32:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > …Slavery had always been a byproduct of warfare in Africa (and, really, in the Ancient world period)… (post shortened) That sums it up, quite nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5026 "2015-07-15T17:33:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > That sums it up, quite nicely. No, it fucking does not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5027 "2015-07-15T17:38:02Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > That sums it up, quite nicely. What does it sum up? What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5028 "2015-07-15T17:42:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would certainly agree that all those things are bad, distasteful, and should not be permitted. But they’re not “inherently immoral”, because there is quite simply no such thing as “inherent morality”. Right and wrong are not some inherent quality of the universe or some dictate handed down by a supernatural being - they’re man-made abstractions for the things we’ve decided we do and don’t like. Do you believe that happiness is, by definition, better than suffering? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5029 "2015-07-15T17:45:50Z")
Part 1 - > [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](#): > > Oh those crazy black people, if they hadn’t got themselves all wrapped in chains and shipped across the Atlantic … they’ve only themselves to blame. :rolleyes: Part 2 - > [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you suggesting that groups of Africans, operating on the continent of Africa, raided African villages in order to capture fellow Africans, who were then to be used as slaves, and to be sold as slaves? That is cRaZy. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > ??? What does this have to do with any part of this discussion? Gosh, just how stupid are you? You just reminded me why I stopped reading, and responding, to your delusional ranting in the first place. Maybe, in your spare time, you could ask **Bam Boo Gut** the same question? I was RESPONDING to **Bam Boo Gut** ’s post, but you have no way of knowing that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5030 "2015-07-15T17:47:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Gosh, just how stupid are you? You just reminded me why I stopped reading, and responding, to your delusional ranting in the first place. Maybe, in your spare time, you could ask \*\*Bam Boo Gut \*\*the same question? **Bam Boo Gut** was ridiculing the idea of blaming slaves for their own enslavement. Your next post was about Africans enslaving Africans, which had nothing to do with **Bam Boo Gut** ’s post (or any other part of this discussion). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5031 "2015-07-15T18:04:30Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > Do you believe that happiness is, by definition, better than suffering? Yes I would, and I would also agree that a world in which all preventable suffering is minimized would be ideal which I assume is where this is leading. That doesn’t mean, however, that the universe itself abhors suffering or that there is some moral imperative incumbent on all humans to minimize suffering. There are people out there who would likely take a different approach and argue that suffering is important to the human experience, or that suffering builds character and weeds out the weak, or that people should be expected to pull themselves out of bad situations without having to rely on society to do it for them. I disagree with those views, but I can’t disprove them simply by stating my own opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5032 "2015-07-15T18:14:55Z")
It’s remarkable to interact with someone who is not a neonate and who is totally devoid of any agency whatsoever. Any and all structure comes from without, but only in the immediate environment - external authority in any form (physical or coercive force or legal authority). Stunning when you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5033 "2015-07-15T18:27:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes I would, and I would also agree that a world in which all preventable suffering is minimized would be ideal which I assume is where this is leading. That doesn’t mean, however, that the universe itself abhors suffering or that there is some moral imperative incumbent on all humans to minimize suffering. There are people out there who would likely take a different approach and argue that suffering is important to the human experience, or that suffering builds character and weeds out the weak, or that people should be expected to pull themselves out of bad situations without having to rely on society to do it for them. I disagree with those views, but I can’t disprove them simply by stating my own opinion. Okay. I’m not going in quite the direction you anticipate, but thanks for elaborating. Here’s my second question: Do you believe that happiness and suffering correspond to states in the brain which can, in principle at least, be quantified? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5034 "2015-07-15T20:02:23Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So explain yourself! Same causes, different outcomes? What’s your mechanism, idiot? At what point does some difference occur to explain differential outcome? As I’ve said, there’s something in black culture that is causing their young men to be vastly more violent than anyone else - that’s the different cause, the different culture. I’ve suggested things to do with the culture that might cause it, to which you’ve unsurprisingly shouted “RACISM!!!” rather than actually discussing it. > [@](#): > > You can keep running away by crying “bad faith,” but it’s clear to everyone that this is just straight up evasion. I’m not running away from anything, you’re refusing to actually respond to what I write. For some reason… > [@](#): > > ETA besides which, your statement that black people are not unique in the US in their experience of discrimination and disadvantage is just fucking laughable and ignorant. Hell, this thread is a detailed accounting of just that. Black people aren’t even the people who’ve been discriminated against the worst in the US, at least in the last 150 years. No internment, no reservations, no destruction of entire nations of people. And yet, for some reason, the Japanese and the Native Americans aren’t several times more violent than anybody else… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5035 "2015-07-15T20:14:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Black people aren’t even the people who’ve been discriminated against the worst in the US, at least in the last 150 years. No internment, no reservations, no destruction of entire nations of people. And yet, for some reason, the Japanese and the Native Americans aren’t several times more violent than anybody else… This is an astoundingly false assertion when the entire 150 years (or prior decades) are considered. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5036 "2015-07-15T20:33:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Black people aren’t even the people who’ve been discriminated against the worst in the US, at least in the last 150 years. No internment, no reservations, no destruction of entire nations of people. Over 3,400 African-Americans have been [lynched in the last 150 years](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html). I forget, how many Japanese and Native Americans were lynched in that time? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5037 "2015-07-15T20:42:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As I’ve said, there’s something in black culture that is causing their young men to be vastly more violent than anyone else - that’s the different cause, the different culture. You know what’d help? If you preface statements like that with “I’m not a racist but”. And then maybe follow it with a “some of my best friends are black” That way no matter how sweeping a statement you care to make about incidents of violence being due to black culture (rather than socio-economic factors or historical issues) people wouldn’t mistakenly conclude you’re a racist fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5038 "2015-07-15T22:04:29Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > You know what’d help? If you preface statements like that with “I’m not a racist but”. And then maybe follow it with a “some of my best friends are black” > > That way no matter how sweeping a statement you care to make about incidents of violence being due to black culture (rather than socio-economic factors or historical issues) people wouldn’t mistakenly conclude you’re a racist fuck. Obviously you have no idea what racism is, then. Historical issues or socioeconomic issues aren’t unique to black people, the young, violent men are. You know why the problem won’t be solved? Because even talking about it gets idiots like you screaming “RACISM!!!” rather than actually trying to find out what’s happening. It’s like you _want_ to keep a dangerous, destructive culture that kills thousands of people, and harms many many more, because you’re too scared to think about it. And yet I bet you’d be the first to condemn other dangerous (or seemingly dangerous) cultures, such as US gun culture, or fundamentalist religion… I imagine you mistake commenting on the effect of the culture for blaming members of it _in general_. It isn’t, the only people who deserve blame are the ones committing the violent acts - but if we want to stop it, we need to understand why. Kneejerk, thoughtless liberalism won’t achieve that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5039 "2015-07-15T22:09:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Over 3,400 African-Americans have been [lynched in the last 150 years](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html). I forget, how many Japanese and Native Americans were lynched in that time? There were times when that many Native Americans were killed on a weekly basis. Yes, there are problems with young Native men being violent or otherwise criminal, that would be a good baseline for the effect of poverty and bigotry. And yet young black men, despite being treated better, are far more violent. Unless you’re going to contend that the lynching of that many people is somehow worse than the attempted eradication of entire civilisations - an actual series of attempted genocides - in which case, I’d have to conclude you’re either insane or literally retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5040 "2015-07-15T22:11:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Obviously you have no idea what racism is, then. Historical issues or socioeconomic issues aren’t unique to black people, the young, violent men are. There are no young, violent white men? Latinos? Asians? Why are all those police departments wasting money fighting gangs? Calling you an idiot is an insult to idiots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=251) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=253)