# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 255
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5081 "2015-07-16T14:56:21Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So only government, by its laws, can confer human rights and freedoms? Pretty much. You can certainly assert that you have any right that you want, but unless the government is willing to acknowledge and protect that right your assertion means nothing to anyone who disagrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5082 "2015-07-16T14:59:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because disagreeing with a law doesn’t mean you get to ignore it. The law must be obeyed whether you like it or not - to believe otherwise would mean accepting that people who believe in things you don’t like are free to ignore the laws that you support. So obeying laws is then much more important to you, and always takes precedence, over any actions “conducive to promoting individual rights and freedoms”, if there is a conflict between them? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5083 "2015-07-16T15:15:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So obeying laws is then much more important to you, and always takes precedence, over any actions “conducive to promoting individual rights and freedoms”, if there is a conflict between them? The rule of law is essential to freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5084 "2015-07-16T15:16:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The rule of law is essential to freedom. But actual freedom, not so much? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5085 "2015-07-16T15:19:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But actual freedom, not so much? Without law, freedom is unachievable. You may as well ask if having an ice cream sundae is better than being able to breathe. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5086 "2015-07-16T15:20:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Without law, freedom is unachievable. You may as well ask if having an ice cream sundae is better than being able to breathe. So if there was a law against breathing, what would you do? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5087 "2015-07-16T15:22:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The rule of law is essential to freedom. Not when laws support slavery – in these cases, the rule of (this particular) law is an enemy to freedom. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5088 "2015-07-16T15:23:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Without law, freedom is unachievable. With laws supporting slavery, freedom is unachievable _except by violating those laws_. Freedom should be valued more highly than laws that restrict freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5089 "2015-07-16T15:24:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So only government, by its laws, can confer human rights and freedoms? Obviously… Where else would they come from? Moral philosophy can tell you what the rights are, but that alone can’t put them into practice, only the concentrated effort of people can do that. Said concentrated effort is what government _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5090 "2015-07-16T15:26:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > With laws supporting slavery, freedom is unachievable _except by violating those laws_. Freedom should be valued more highly than laws that restrict freedom. That’s factually false. Freedom can also be attained by the laws being changed. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5091 "2015-07-16T15:26:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Obviously… Where else would they come from? Moral philosophy can tell you what the rights are, but that alone can’t put them into practice, only the concentrated effort of people can do that. Said concentrated effort is what government _is_. Is it morally right to overthrow a government to secure human rights and freedoms? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5092 "2015-07-16T15:31:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Pretty much. You can certainly assert that you have any right that you want, but unless the government is willing to acknowledge and protect that right your assertion means nothing to anyone who disagrees with you. Huh. I remember reading this somewhere: > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Sounds like these crazy guys wanted to abolish their government–the horror! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5093 "2015-07-16T15:37:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s factually false. Freedom can also be attained by the laws being changed. Then we’re no longer in a situation “with laws supporting slavery”. Further, sometimes it’s necessary to _break_ such laws in order to change them (as occurred in the US Civil Rights movement). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5094 "2015-07-16T15:42:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because disagreeing with a law doesn’t mean you get to ignore it. The law must be obeyed whether you like it or not - to believe otherwise would mean accepting that people who believe in things you don’t like are free to ignore the laws that you support. Here’s the thing though-If all citizens are supposed to obey the law, if all _fully recognized human beings_ are supposed to obey the law, then as property you are under no obligation to obey the law, are you? If a dog does something wrong it is not the dog that is changed with a crime, it is the owner-the dog is not obligated to follow any laws because the laws are not written for property to obey. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5095 "2015-07-16T15:43:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then we’re no longer in a situation “with laws supporting slavery”. Further, sometimes it’s necessary to _break_ such laws in order to change them (as occurred in the US Civil Rights movement). Such law-breaking also occurred during the abolitionist movement, and was very influential in actually ending slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5096 "2015-07-16T16:54:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The rule of law is essential to freedom. And you were doing so well. Right up to this point your persona was plausible. Honestly, you were right on the edge but just keeping one foot in play. Kudos for keeping it spinning this long ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5097 "2015-07-16T17:02:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Linked video depicts nude woman with only a towel, probably NSFW. > > [Illegal home invasion by Colorado police](http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/u-s-world/cell-phone-video-chandler-officer-illegally-enters-womans-home-arrests-her-while-she-is-naked); woman wearing only a towel handcuffed, then released without charges. One victim records the encounter on a cell phone; the accused officer’s body cam mysteriously has no video. Internal affairs determines there was no probable cause, and the home entry was illegal. That’s a hell of a story. ISTM, in a case like this, the cop in question may have been guilty of a criminal offence and should subject to a grand jury investigation, as opposed to just procedural violations covered by IA. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5098 "2015-07-16T17:13:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is it morally right to overthrow a government to secure human rights and freedoms? Like where you’re going with this but as Steophan is a Brit he might not get the irony ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5099 "2015-07-16T17:50:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Linked video depicts nude woman with only a towel, probably NSFW. > > [Illegal home invasion by Colorado police](http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/u-s-world/cell-phone-video-chandler-officer-illegally-enters-womans-home-arrests-her-while-she-is-naked); woman wearing only a towel handcuffed, then released without charges. One victim records the encounter on a cell phone; the accused officer’s body cam mysteriously has no video. Internal affairs determines there was no probable cause, and the home entry was illegal. I do find it a bit hopeful to note the junior officer’s reaction: > [@the cited news article](#): > > After the incident, the other officer involved immediately contacted his supervisor to raise questions about Rose’s actions. The second officer was cleared of wrongdoing. I know the other officer didn’t take any action at the time, but it’s a perilous thing on its own to go over your senior partner’s head to complain even after the fact. I wonder how many officers are quietly forced out after either a) needing too many interventions by other LEO’s or b) intervening “against” other LEO’s. And I wonder which of these is more common. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5100 "2015-07-16T18:41:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is it morally right to overthrow a government to secure human rights and freedoms? Who gets to decide what’s morally right, what rights and freedoms people should have? I don’t think that’s a trivial question. I would say that a democratic government probably shouldn’t be, as by doing so you’re asserting that you’re objectively morally superior to the majority. Which is necessarily not true. > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Like where you’re going with this but as Steophan is a Brit he might not get the irony One shouldn’t overthrow legitimate monarchs either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=254) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=256)