# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 256
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5101 "2015-07-16T19:01:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Who gets to decide what’s morally right, what rights and freedoms people should have? I don’t think that’s a trivial question. I would say that a democratic government probably shouldn’t be, as by doing so you’re asserting that you’re objectively morally superior to the majority. Which is necessarily not true. OK, let narrow this down. Is it ever justifiable to overthrow a government to secure human rights and freedoms? Democratic governments are not restrained from tyranny by the majority by anything except morality. If morality is indeterminate, why can’t the minority rebel against oppressive tyranny and overthrow it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5102 "2015-07-16T19:17:54Z")
They shouldn’t, rather than they can’t, because it will make life worse for everyone - assuming that there’s actually a democratic government and said minority has the right to vote, to campaign and so forth. If that’s the case, working within the system will get them better results. Also, as **Smapti** has made clear, saying you support overthrowing an elected government because you think they’re morally wrong necessarily means that you think _anyone_ who disagrees with the government on moral grounds should fight it, no matter how reprehensible you find their views. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5103 "2015-07-16T19:42:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They shouldn’t, rather than they can’t, because it will make life worse for everyone - assuming that there’s actually a democratic government and said minority has the right to vote, to campaign and so forth. If that’s the case, working within the system will get them better results. You are presuming that the minority has the same civil rights as the majority. In a democracy, it is the will of the majority that determines who has what rights that are not enumerated in the constitution. Plenty of latitude to oppress the minority and restrict their ability to legally challenge the oppression. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5104 "2015-07-16T19:45:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > One shouldn’t overthrow legitimate monarchs either. As there’s no such fucking thing, that’s alright, then. Sic semper tyrannis (sed solum tyrannum amo), eh? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5105 "2015-07-16T20:13:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > As there’s no such fucking thing, that’s alright, then. Sic semper tyrannis (sed solum tyrannum amo), eh? Apparently, the Cambridge Dictionaries Online disagrees with you. Who woulda thunk it? \*legitimate le·git·i·mate (lə-jĭt′ə-mĭt) adj. 1. a. Being in compliance with the law; lawful: a legitimate business. b. Being in accordance with established or accepted rules and standards: legitimate advertising practices. c. Valid or justifiable: a legitimate complaint. d. Based on logical reasoning: a legitimate deduction. 1. Born of legally married parents: legitimate offspring. **3. Of, relating to, or ruling by hereditary right: a legitimate monarch.** 1. Of or relating to drama of high professional quality that excludes burlesque, vaudeville, and some forms of musical comedy: the legitimate theater. > **[legitimate](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/legitimate?q=legitimate%2B)** > > 1. allowed by law: 2. reasonable and acceptable: 3. A legitimate child is one… I guess it is correct to say, “one shouldn’t overthrow legitimate monarchs either”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5106 "2015-07-16T20:16:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You are presuming that the minority has the same civil rights as the majority. In a democracy, it is the will of the majority that determines who has what rights that are not enumerated in the constitution. Plenty of latitude to oppress the minority and restrict their ability to legally challenge the oppression. No, that’s not a democracy. That’s one reason civil rights protests in the 60s were legitimate, and the “protests” in Ferguson by or on behalf of those who have the full right to vote and be voted for, ar not. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5107 "2015-07-16T20:17:52Z")
Also, for fuck’s sake, the “legitimate Monarch” thing was a joke based on someone’s comment about my nationality… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5108 "2015-07-16T20:38:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, that’s not a democracy. That’s one reason civil rights protests in the 60s were legitimate, and the “protests” in Ferguson by or on behalf of those who have the full right to vote and be voted for, ar not. So for nearly 150 years, the United States was not a democracy? Because women didn’t get the right to vote until 1920, and the poll tax and poll tests for black voters were not abolished until 1964. See [Disenfranchisement after the Reconstruction Era](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disenfranchisement_after_the_Reconstruction_Era) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5109 "2015-07-16T23:06:13Z")
[Woman drives to Texas to start a new job, gets arrested for a minor traffic violation, and her body is found in jail two days later.](http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2015/07/sandra_bland_drove_to_texas_to_start_a_new_job_so_how_did_she_end_up_dead.html) Yes, you guessed right. She is (was) black. The cop involved was fired from his last job for being racist. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5110 "2015-07-16T23:16:19Z")
But… But… Her death has been ruled suicide! Isn’t that good enough for you?!? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5111 "2015-07-16T23:21:41Z")
At this point, I’m all for passing laws that charge **every single cop** that had _anything_ to do with any suspect in custody who ends up dead _at any point_ in the custodial chain with first-degree murder, with provisions that prevent the DA’s office from refusing to prosecute or plea-bargaining _anything_. The cops should have to pay for their own lawyers as well. That will destroy the Blue Wall once and for all. If the state doesn’t have capital punishment, it should be reinstated for custodial deaths. Make every cop go to trial. If they are innocent, the jury will decide that. Every other cop responsible gets fried. I’ve fucking **had it**. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5112 "2015-07-17T01:03:03Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > At this point, I’m all for passing laws that charge **every single cop** that had _anything_ to do with any suspect in custody who ends up dead _at any point_ in the custodial chain with first-degree murder, with provisions that prevent the DA’s office from refusing to prosecute or plea-bargaining _anything_. The cops should have to pay for their own lawyers as well. That will destroy the Blue Wall once and for all. If the state doesn’t have capital punishment, it should be reinstated for custodial deaths. Make every cop go to trial. If they are innocent, the jury will decide that. Every other cop responsible gets fried. I’ve fucking **had it**. And how do you propose to deal with the fact that _nobody whatsoever_ is going to want to volunteer to become a police officer once they’re informed that they will be charged with capital murder and sentenced to death if anyone they ever come into contact with dies? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5113 "2015-07-17T01:04:58Z")
I’m good with that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5114 "2015-07-17T01:06:23Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > And you were doing so well. Right up to this point your persona was plausible. Honestly, you were right on the edge but just keeping one foot in play. Kudos for keeping it spinning this long “My persona” is who I am. I am incapable of pretending to be something I am not. If you are so absolutely certain that your own personal beliefs are absolutely true that you believe the only way someone can disagree with you is if they are lying, then the fault lies with you, not with the dissenter. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5115 "2015-07-17T01:07:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I’m good with that. 😉 Then you acknowledge that you’re just an anarchist who believes that all police power is wrong and that anyone should be allowed to do whatever they feel like at any time. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5116 "2015-07-17T01:08:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > OK, let narrow this down. Is it ever justifiable to overthrow a government to secure human rights and freedoms? No. > [@](#): > > Democratic governments are not restrained from tyranny by the majority by anything except morality. If morality is indeterminate, why can’t the minority rebel against oppressive tyranny and overthrow it? Because morality is indeterminate, any claim that one is rebelling against an “immoral” government is inherently invalid. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5117 "2015-07-17T01:10:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then you acknowledge that you’re just an anarchist who believes that all police power is wrong and that anyone should be allowed to do whatever they feel like at any time. > > Good to know. Given that cops have killed an average of 4 Americans/day so far this month, I’ll take my chances with anarchy. It’s safer. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5118 "2015-07-17T01:13:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because morality is indeterminate, any claim that one is rebelling against an “immoral” government is inherently invalid. I didn’t say the rebellion was against immorality, it is to secure human rights and freedoms. If morality is indeterminate, such a rebellion is not immoral. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5119 "2015-07-17T01:16:00Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Given that cops have killed an average of 4 Americans/day so far this month, I’ll take my chances with anarchy. It’s safer. How many Americans per day have non-cops killed this month? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5120 "2015-07-17T01:17:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I didn’t say the rebellion was against immorality, it is to secure human rights and freedoms. If morality is indeterminate, such a rebellion is not immoral. Right? No rebellion is immoral, because morality is subjective and unprovable. However, all rebellions are _unlawful_, regardless of what the rebels believe they’re killing in the name of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=255) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=257)