# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 262
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5221 "2015-07-21T17:41:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Here’s how it could be done. > > Walk up to slowly moving car. > Break driver window Armed driver shoots cop dead. You continue to insist that police should be expected to put their lives unnecessarily in danger when dealing with people who have already demonstrated a reckless disregard for human life and when they have no earthly way of knowing exactly how dangerous the situation they’re expected to enter may be. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5222 "2015-07-21T17:44:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Armed driver shoots cop dead. She had a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5223 "2015-07-21T17:46:01Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > She had a gun? She _could_ have had a gun. The officer had no way of knowing she didn’t, and she had already displayed a reckless disregard for human life and was continuing to attempt to attack the officers by ramming them with her vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5224 "2015-07-21T17:46:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Armed driver shoots cop dead. > > You continue to insist that police should be expected to put their lives unnecessarily in danger when dealing with people who have already demonstrated a reckless disregard for human life and when they have no earthly way of knowing exactly how dangerous the situation they’re expected to enter may be. So it is your position that every person should be assumed to be armed and therefore may be shot by any cop at any time? You insist that no cop ever risk as much as a hangnail in an encounter and their best move is to shoot first and ask questions later. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5225 "2015-07-21T17:49:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So it is your position that every person should be assumed to be armed and therefore may be shot by any cop at any time? It is my position that a criminal who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards police cannot automatically be assumed to be unarmed simply because a gun has not been fired or brandished by them. I realize that this is more subtlety than your “Shoot = Bad, No shoot = Good” worldview allows for. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5226 "2015-07-21T17:52:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Armed driver shoots cop dead. I shouldn’t expect **BobLibDem** ’s plan involved the cop walking up to the car with his hands in his pockets and whistling a jaunty tune. IF the driver had had a weapon and IF she had motioned to it or pointed it at anyone, THEN the cop who already has a bead on her could have fired. And it would have been a perfectly justified shot, too. It’s not brain surgery, dude. Cops don’t get to fire on maybe’s and coulda’s. That’s not how it’s done, and that’s not how we, you know, the guys _cutting their checks and for whom they fucking work_, want them to do it. If they have a problem with that, they can find another job. You continue to insist that cops should act like the whole world is out to get them, and therefore should shoot firstest, firster and never ever give anyone ever the benefit of any doubt whatsoever. Then maybe throw a Miranda card at the corpse or something. From a safe distance, of course. It’s, quite literally, insane. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5227 "2015-07-21T17:53:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is my position that a criminal who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards police cannot automatically be assumed to be unarmed simply because a gun has not been fired or brandished by them. Is it your position that anyone who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards a police officer should be shot? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5228 "2015-07-21T17:57:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is it your position that anyone who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards a police officer should be shot? Isn’t this obvious? The answer will be unquestionably yes. Shot and killed preferably as this is what they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5229 "2015-07-21T17:59:07Z")
[http://investigations.myajc.com/caroline-small-shooting/](http://investigations.myajc.com/caroline-small-shooting/) > [@](#): > > Officer Sasser’s dash cam video shows Small backing up into the utility pole, then pulling forward and bumping into his county vehicle. At roughly the same time, Georgia State Patrol Trooper Jonathan Malone is seen running behind Small’s vehicle in an effort to extract her from the driver’s side, but he retreats when he sees Glynn County officers with their guns pointed at the Buick. > > “Let me get out there and get her out,” Malone calls out to the other officers, according to the GBI audio transcripts. > > “Hold on, hold on,” one unknown officer responds. > > “If she moves the car, I’m going to shoot her,” Simpson says. > > Moments later gunfire erupts and Small is hit by police bullets. The State Trooper on the scene asked for the chance to pull her out of the car. He believed (or was willing to take the chance) that he could get her out without undue risk to himself. The local cops fired anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5230 "2015-07-21T18:02:45Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I shouldn’t expect **BobLibDem** ’s plan involved the cop walking up to the car with his hands in his pockets and whistling a jaunty tune. IF the driver had had a weapon and IF she had motioned to it or pointed it at anyone, THEN the cop who already has a bead on her could have fired. And it would have been a perfectly justified shot, too. I’d be surprised if he’d be willing to concede even that. Just because the suspect is pointing a gun at you doesn’t mean it’s _loaded_, you know, and we pay cops to take risks like that, right? > [@](#): > > It’s not brain surgery, dude. Cops don’t get to fire on maybe’s and coulda’s. That’s not how it’s done, and that’s not how we, you know, the guys _cutting their checks and for whom they fucking work_, want them to do it. If they have a problem with that, they can find another job. Good luck finding people who _want_ to police you under the terms you’re providing. You need them on that wall. > [@](#): > > You continue to insist that cops should act like the whole world is out to get them, and therefore should shoot firstest, firster and never ever give anyone ever the benefit of any doubt whatsoever. Strawman. I continue to insist only that a cop should not be obligated to value the life of a hostile subject more highly than their own. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5231 "2015-07-21T18:03:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is it your position that anyone who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards a police officer should be shot? It is my position that anyone who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards a police officer _may_ be justifiably shot if the officer believes that he is in danger. ---
**Author:** ![JVDaly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@JVDaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JVDaly)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5232 "2015-07-21T18:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Good luck finding people who want to police you under the terms you’re providing. Oh, that’s easy. You can find them in _nearly every other country in the world!_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5233 "2015-07-21T18:07:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is my position that anyone who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards a police officer _may_ be justifiably shot if the officer believes that he is in danger. At no time during that encounter did any officer bring up the possibility that she had a gun, or that she presented a real danger to them. They shot her because she wouldn’t stop moving her hemmed in vehicle back and forth, _period_. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5234 "2015-07-21T18:07:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is my position that anyone who resists arrest and acts in a threatening manner towards a police officer _may_ be justifiably shot if the officer believes that he is in danger. Any danger or lethal danger? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5235 "2015-07-21T18:09:24Z")
> [@JVDaly](#): > > Oh, that’s easy. You can find them in _nearly every other country in the world!_ Most of those countries don’t have a universal right to bear arms _or_ the kind of easy accessibility to guns that Americans have. You take a unit of Norwegian cops and have them work a beat in Compton for a month and see if they still think they don’t need to be more proactive in order to go home in one piece. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5236 "2015-07-21T18:10:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At no time during that encounter did any officer bring up the possibility that she had a gun, or that she presented a real danger to them. They shot her because she wouldn’t stop moving her hemmed in vehicle back and forth, _period_. In other words, they shot her because, by ramming them continuously, she presented a real danger. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5237 "2015-07-21T18:11:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Any danger or lethal danger? Danger to life or limb. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5238 "2015-07-21T18:11:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Most of those countries don’t have a universal right to bear arms _or_ the kind of easy accessibility to guns that Americans have. You take a unit of Norwegian cops and have them work a beat in Compton for a month and see if they still think they don’t need to be more proactive in order to go home in one piece. She didn’t have a gun. Nobody thought she had a gun. Nobody brought up the possibility she had a gun. They shot her because she was denting their cars. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5239 "2015-07-21T18:13:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Danger to life or limb. How about danger to their parked vehicles, schmuck? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5240 "2015-07-21T18:14:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about danger to their parked vehicles, schmuck? The parked vehicles which they were _inside_ of? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=261) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=263)