# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 268
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5341 "2015-07-23T06:45:53Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Fine. Then arrest them. Try them. Punish them. > > But you’re arguing for preemptive execution. If I may suggest, he’s arguing for police discretion to commit preemptive execution. There will have to be full and proper due process in any cop’s decision that someone needs to get shot for having a bad attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5342 "2015-07-23T11:35:20Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Fine. Then arrest them. Try them. Punish them. > > But you’re arguing for preemptive execution. No, I’m not arguing for that, I’m arguing that, as they were suspected criminals, the police had the right to arrest them - which necessitates some use of force. Ideally, that use of force will be someone accepting being handcuffed, but that’s not what happened in these cases. So, there needs to be a use of force to arrest them. And the police, being both the innocent party (at least we can agree that, at the point of starting to arrest a suspected criminal, they have done nothing wrong) and the ones having the legal right to use force, are not the ones who should be injured if the suspect resists. They have a right to self defence, same as everyone else. So no, no preemptive execution, but the right to use force to remain safe and uninjured whilst doing their job and protecting you. Combined with a lack of sympathy for those who break the law, then resist the police (which is also illegal) with predictable consequences. I’m sure some idiots will call this “victim-blaming”, but they’d be wrong as usual. When a cop has to use force to make an arrest because someone is resisting, or defend themselves against an attack, _they are the victim of the crime_, not the resister or attacker. Same as in any self defence situation. Again, it’s not about execution. It’s about who is responsible for the deaths. In many cases, the most obvious recently being Michael Brown, it was the dead person who was mostly or entirely responsible for it, and could have, by not repeatedly breaking the law in such a way that threatened or injured someone, not died. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5343 "2015-07-23T11:46:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, there needs to be a use of force to arrest them. And the police, being both the innocent party (at least we can agree that, at the point of starting to arrest a suspected criminal, they have done nothing wrong) and the ones having the legal right to use force, are not the ones who should be injured if the suspect resists. They have a right to self defence, same as everyone else. So that gives them the duty to shoot people as they are [driving away from the cop](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cop-shoots-kills-unarmed-black-man_55af9a7de4b0a9b948530a26)? > [@](#): > > “There was a struggle at the door with Mr. Dubose in the vehicle and the officer outside the vehicle, and the vehicle sped away,” Cincinnati police Lt. Col. James Whalen told reporters, according to CNN. > > Tensing fired one shot at the fleeing car, killing Dubose. tl;dr: Officer white, victim black, unarmed. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5344 "2015-07-23T12:11:09Z")
If we only consider the economics of the situation; I’d rather pay overtime to officers standing around, waiting for the woman to exit her vehicle (if only eventually due to hunger) then to pay lawyers to handle the lawsuits that occur when the officers decide times a wastin, so they shoot her. I’d rather pay for officers to surround Tamir Rice from a (safe) distance, observe him via binoculars, and use loud speakers to talk with him and determine if a threat exists. Instead, he was summarily dispatched and we are still dealing with the aftermath. Again, my way is cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5345 "2015-07-23T13:32:19Z")
[It happened back in May '14](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/militarized-swat-teams-under-scrutiny-toddler-recovers-grenade-n150246), and local grand jury refused to indict for anything wrongdoings of officer(s). IIRC, there was quite bit of controversy over the warrant’s issuance amid other things involved in the raid. Turns out one of the warrant-seeking officers lied to the judge about facts of the case, and is now indicted at Federal-level. False info was given to judge (beyond reasonable doubt, so to speak). Raid should NOT have happened whatsoever given the actual facts of the case… [Here’s a short story](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/ex-deputy-indicted-for-false-info-in-search-warrant-for-drug-raid-that-left-toddler-maimed/) of why the indictment (4 counts of civil-rights violations) was issued yesterday - I’m sure there are more detailed stories to be found as this indictment information develops. Local grand jury system/DA relationships need to change to make things absolutelytransparent (and honest) so that this kind of shit quits happening, IMHO. Just thought I’d update on this particular case that left an innocent toddler maimed with at least a million dollars in medical bills so far. LEO stated there was no indication of kids in home despite four ‘baby seats’ being in a vehicle at house(!). The lengths of what so many LEO’s will go to for ‘probable cause’ in dishonest and misleading ways is simply astonishing, but not uncommon at all from what has been seen, IMHO. Thought it worth mention as an ‘update’ on this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5346 "2015-07-23T13:41:10Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > But you’re arguing for preemptive execution. So much THIS. Smapti and Steophan are Fascists who believe in state power to execute citizens at will for non-compliance with the most basic of orders. Attempting non-lethal means of control is absurd because it might potentially (theoretically) endanger the police officer, and we can’t have that. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5347 "2015-07-23T13:55:36Z")
Then toss in the fact that in a large number of cases, the police are the ones who instigate or provoke the action. You can tell that the SS twins are just that by the repeated use of the word “illegal.” Sorry, guys. Cops deal with _suspected_ crimes. You have the people already convicted by the cops when you say otherwise. I don’t care if the cop was right there and saw someone commit a blatant felony - they are still only a suspect until a judge or jury has ruled, and a cop is neither. And quite frankly, cops don’t have a “right to be safe” any more than firefighters do. They signed up for a job that entails some large degree of unsafety. If they can’t handle that, they should go back to flipping burgers. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5348 "2015-07-23T14:21:19Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > And quite frankly, cops don’t have a “right to be safe” any more than firefighters do. They signed up for a job that entails some large degree of unsafety. If they can’t handle that, they should go back to flipping burgers. Let’s give firefighters guns so they can shoot the fires. For safety, of course. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5349 "2015-07-23T14:40:48Z")
Let’s not go overboard on the “it’s a risky profession in the first place” thing. Yes, firefighters, policemen and quite a few non-governmental professionals have elevated risks from the nature of their jobs. But just because they assume some known risks from the start doesn’t obligate anyone to assume a risk that is _unnecessary_ or _unmitigated_. (By “unmitigated” I mean a risk that can’t be reasonably reduced through protective equipment or procedural means.) Which makes the frequency of police actions that deliberately produce situations likely to provoke violence all the more puzzling. No-knock warrants. “Investigating” a suspected gun carrier by powering your vehicle up to him with your weapons out. Insisting on compliance with arbitrary and discretionary instructions on a traffic stop. Using force to take down a misdemeanor violation. These things seem less about public interest and more about department cred and individual egos. They’re damn sure not about “keeping our officers safe.” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5350 "2015-07-23T15:21:44Z")
“Public Safety” seems like a misnomer. Given that violence is kind of known to beget more violence, one would think that police officers ought to be charged with minimizing it all the way around. The evidence, these days, indicates that they have been escalating minor or inconsequential incidents and encounters, perhaps as a means to justify their own existence. If there is no real reform in the wings, they need to be renamed to “Violence Management Services”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5351 "2015-07-23T15:25:50Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > An asthmatic, Troy Goode of Memphis, was hogtied and laid face down on his chest. Witnesses hear him screaming, I can’t breathe! He dies. Police say it was from an “LSD overdose”. > > You’d think they would be smart enough to at least make up an excuse that’s actually possible. I guess they chose LSD because the guy was white. > [Nice White Dad Mysteriously Dies In Police Custody, We Can Talk Police Brutality Now?](http://wonkette.com/591729/nice-white-dad-mysteriously-dies-in-police-custody-we-can-talk-police-brutality-now#46d4PLs4XrSpJ50m.99) From your linked article - \*“He was intoxicated and his wife was driving,” Edwards said. “He was acting erratically and got out of the car for reasons unknown.” Goode’s behavior prompted someone to call the Southaven Police Department. When officers arrived on the scene, Goode allegedly resisted arrest. Goode — who, according to Edwards, had asthma and carried an inhaler — was arrested for disorderly conduct. For reasons not yet clear, Goode was hogtied by officers and placed facedown on a stretcher belonging to a responding ambulance, the lawyer said. …Well, Southaven Police Chief Tom Long first suggested that Goode was “acting erratically from an alleged LSD overdose,” …Desoto County D.A. John Champion claimed in a news conference to have seen a “preliminary report” on the autopsy, sans lab results, from which he drew the conclusion that “Goode’s death was possibly related to heart or lung related issues.” In another report on the same presser, Champion was quoted more specifically, saying, “Basically, (it was) a form of a heart attack. His heart was racing so heavy.” \* > **[Nice White Dad Mysteriously Dies In Police Custody, We Can Talk Police...](https://www.wonkette.com/p/nice-white-dad-mysteriously-dies-in-police-custody-we-can-talk-police-brutality-now)** > > Saturday evening, Troy and Kelli Goode of Memphis headed off to a Widespread Panic concert in nearby Southaven, Mississippi. Goode was intoxicated and acting erratically, which caused an eyewitness to call police. Goode resisted arrest (or maybe he was just acting out his LSD hallucination). During his hallucination-induced ranting he says he can’t breath. Would that claim be any more believable than the rest of Goode’s LSD-induced ranting? It appears that _Wonkette_ is working overtime to spin this incident into another anti-police rant before the official autopsy is available. That’s the very same thing _Wonkette_ is faulting the police for. I’m shocked. Not! ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5352 "2015-07-23T15:31:18Z")
Seriously? They place him face down, hogtied, which places all of his weight on his chest, then when he says that he can’t breathe they assume it’s just ranting? Don’t they have an obligation to take statements like “I can’t breathe” seriously? This was incompetence at best. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5353 "2015-07-23T15:40:46Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So much THIS. Smapti and Steophan are Fascists who believe in state power to execute citizens at will for non-compliance with the most basic of orders. I have never said police should “execute citizens at will for non-compliance”, and I challenge you to quote me saying anything to that account. I have said that police have the exact same right to defend their lives as any other citizen has. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5354 "2015-07-23T15:42:17Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Don’t they have an obligation to take statements like “I can’t breathe” seriously? This was incompetence at best. If you are capable of uttering the words “I can’t breathe”, then it is obvious that you _can_ breathe, because you can’t talk with an obstructed airway. This is one of the most basic things they teach you in a first aid class - never try to perform the Heimlich on a person who _tells_ you they’re choking. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5355 "2015-07-23T15:46:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If you are capable of uttering the words “I can’t breathe”, then it is obvious that you _can_ breathe, because you can’t talk with an obstructed airway. Are you a doctor? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5356 "2015-07-23T15:54:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If you are capable of uttering the words “I can’t breathe”, then it is obvious that you _can_ breathe, because you can’t talk with an obstructed airway. Jesus Christ! Not this autistic, literal interpretation of “I can’t breathe” again! We’ve done this already. **Smapti** you damaged fuck, you have to understand that normal humans use the phrase “I can’t breathe” to mean that they are having difficulty breathing like they normally do. There is an implicit “well” that normal people understand to be attached to the end of the statement. It is often one of the last things people say just prior to literally not being able to breathe. I realize that you are severely impaired, so this probably won’t stick, just like it failed to the last time. You just have to log this one away as one of those human rules that exists, even though you don’t quite get why. Perhaps you should write it on a sticky note and put it on your wall. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5357 "2015-07-23T16:14:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I have never said police should “execute citizens at will for non-compliance”, and I challenge you to quote me saying anything to that account. I have said that police have the exact same right to defend their lives as any other citizen has. Huzzah! I am free to kill every minority person I encounter, because they scare me. All Hail \*\*Smapti’\*\*s solution to the world’s ills: kill everybody that scares you. Or disses you. Or looks at you. Or thinks you might be a fascist moron. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5358 "2015-07-23T16:28:34Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Seriously? They place him face down, hogtied, which places all of his weight on his chest, then when he says that he can’t breathe they assume it’s just ranting? Don’t they have an obligation to take statements like “I can’t breathe” seriously? This was incompetence at best. Since Goode was not simply standing on a street corner minding his own business when the police, who had been called to the scene as a result of Goode’s behavior, attempted to restrain him. The simple utterance of the words “I can’t breathe” doesn’t mean that police should immediately stop attempting to restrain an out-of-control, LSD-tripping, suspect who doesn’t show any other signs of not being able to breathe. It’s not as if suspects who can breathe haven’t claimed that couldn’t breathe in order to escape, or in order to attack the police officers. Maybe Goode shouldn’t have been using LSD? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5359 "2015-07-23T18:49:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I have never said police should “execute citizens at will for non-compliance”, and I challenge you to quote me saying anything to that account. I have said that police have the exact same right to defend their lives as any other citizen has. Dude, every fucking answer you’ve given in this thread, every rebuttal is that you firmly believe that the police have the right to use lethal force against anyone who doesn’t immediately comply with their instructions, or whom they claim to have reason to fear. That last bit is patently false. You do not believe this at all. You believe the police have a right to kill people for reasons that would get the rest of us life imprisonment or the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5360 "2015-07-23T18:50:36Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You believe the police have a right to kill people for reasons that would get the rest of us life imprisonment or the death penalty. Noone should ever get life imprisonment or the death penalty for defending themselves when they believe their life is in danger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=267) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=269)