# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 270
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5381 "2015-07-23T22:39:46Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Sure, but it’s an altogether separate question whether you _should_ face such prosecution. According to **Smapti** , “Noone _should_ ever get life imprisonment or the death penalty for defending themselves when they believe their life is in danger” (italics mine). No-one who kills in self defence _should_ face a prosecution, although unfortunately sometimes the facts are so unclear that it’s necessary. Someone who kills in self defence is usually the _victim_ of a crime, such as an assault, and should be treated as such, and not as a criminal. All of you saying that these cops who defended themselves are murderers, or saying the same about Zimmerman or whoever, are exactly the same as people who claim rape victims shouldn’t have worn that skirt. Do people actually understand this? When someone resists arrest, they are committing a crime, and the cop is the victim. Can you really not process that? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5382 "2015-07-23T22:43:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You know, you hand-wave with such vigor, it’s a wonder you don’t just take off and fly about the room. There’s a difference between handwaving and calling out conspiracy theorists on their bullshit. It’s actually one of the purposes of this site… ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5383 "2015-07-23T22:48:53Z")
1,000 people killed by police a year, compared to single digits in other wealthy nations and it’s a “Conspiracy Theory”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5384 "2015-07-23T22:54:32Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > 1,000 people killed by police a year, compared to single digits in other wealthy nations and it’s a “Conspiracy Theory”. It’s American Exceptionalism again; we just have more scarey people than those Yurpeens. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5385 "2015-07-23T23:20:05Z")
Part 1 - > [@Chimera](#): > > If I claim I thought it was, can I kill him? :dubious: Part 2 - > [@doorhinge](#): > > You can kill anyone you’re able to. Your choice. You must realize that you will face the criminal justice system if you do. Many states claim that they can kill you, if you’re found guilty of murder. Or put you in prison for the rest of your natural life. Part 3 - > [@xenophon41](#): > > Y’know, ' **hinge** , **Gary Kumquat** already summed up for you the theme of the discussion you interjected your bent penny into. Seriously, it’s in the next paragraph after the one you quoted. If that’s too tough for you to follow, maybe you should go lie down and try again tomorrow. I see you’re incapable of spelling my nom de plume correctly. :rolleyes: I responded to **Chimera** ’s post. Maybe you’ll have better results if you follow the text with your finger. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5386 "2015-07-23T23:22:43Z")
This is why I should avoid punching below my weight. Sorry, everybody else; I temporarily forgot **doorhinge** is as mentally agile as his \ _nom de plume_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5387 "2015-07-24T00:23:24Z")
It turns out that being arrested is [twice as deadly](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/being-arrested-is-nearly-twice-as-deadly-for-african-americans-as-whites/) for black people as for white people. We should note that this is a comparison of arrestees, and not the general public. So basically, black criminals are twice as likely to be killed in custody than white criminals. Also, oddly enough, black arrestees are more than twice as likely to die in custody by intoxication, four times more likely to die in custody by _accident_, and four times as likely to die in custody for unknown causes, but only about half as likely to die by suicide as white arrestees. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5388 "2015-07-24T04:18:40Z")
[Homemade warning banner/sign in Prairie View TX](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/21/1404253/-Someone-put-up-a-new-warning-sign-for-motorists-in-the-town-where-Sandra-Bland-was-arrested?detail=email) advises, “_signal lane change or sheriff may kill you_”. I am not really convinced that this is a well-considered move. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5389 "2015-07-24T07:30:53Z")
Doorhinge, out of consideration for whatever mental retardation prevents you from following a discussion, let me just put those posts all in one neat little row for you: > [@Chimera](#): > > **You believe** the police have a right to kill people for reasons that would get the rest of us life imprisonment or the death penalty. > [@Smapti](#): > > Noone should ever get life imprisonment or the death penalty for defending themselves when they believe their life is in danger. > [@Chimera](#): > > **So you believe that** , for example, the other day when some jackass followed me a few feet in the parking garage and swore at me for calling him out on his bad behavior on the bus, I should have just straight up murdered him and I should be ok because I thought for a few seconds that he may attack me? :smack: > [@Smapti](#): > > Did you believe your life was in danger? > [@Chimera](#): > > If I claim I thought it was, can I kill him? :dubious: > [@doorhinge](#): > > You can kill anyone you’re able to. Your choice. You must realize that you will face the criminal justice system if you do. Many states claim that they can kill you, if you’re found guilty of murder. Or put you in prison for the rest of your natural life. Now, if you can just highlight which part of that exchange about Smapti’s beliefs you think is answered by reference to state law, that would be useful. Well, entertaining at any rate. You really should consider changing your user name to Non Sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5390 "2015-07-24T09:52:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Also, oddly enough, black arrestees are more than twice as likely to die in custody by intoxication, four times more likely to die in custody by _accident_, and four times as likely to die in custody for unknown causes, but only about half as likely to die by suicide as white arrestees. White people are 2.5 times more likely to die as a result of intoxication than blacks, based on that article - 210.3 to 69.8, assuming no overlap. The most surprising thing about that is that white people are more likely to die in custody than blacks, and more likely to die from every cause but homicide, where there’s a very slight difference towards blacks. The actual arrest seems to be more dangerous for blacks, but being in custody seems to be more dangerous for whites… This surprises me, to be honest, and I’m not sure what conclusions to draw. But it looks obvious, if the figures are correct, that black people aren’t being dangerously mistreated more than whites whilst in jail. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5391 "2015-07-24T10:40:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > White people are 2.5 times more likely to die as a result of intoxication than blacks, based on that article - 210.3 to 69.8, assuming no overlap. The most surprising thing about that is that white people are more likely to die in custody than blacks, and more likely to die from every cause but homicide, where there’s a very slight difference towards blacks. > > The actual arrest seems to be more dangerous for blacks, but being in custody seems to be more dangerous for whites… This surprises me, to be honest, and I’m not sure what conclusions to draw. But it looks obvious, if the figures are correct, that black people aren’t being dangerously mistreated more than whites whilst in jail. Where did you see those numbers? I was looking at the numbers in the body of the linked article which compared only black arrestees to white arrestees, and they showed (unless I missed something) that black people in custody are more likely to be killed in various ways (except for suicide) than white people in custody: Per 100,000 black arrests: 3.4 deaths by homicide .3 deaths by suicide .8 deaths by intoxication .4 deaths by accident .3 deaths by natural causes .4 deaths by unknown cause Per 100,000 white arrests: 1.8 deaths by homicide .5 deaths by suicide .3 deaths by intoxication .1 deaths by accident .2 deaths by natural causes .1 deaths by unknown cause ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5392 "2015-07-24T10:48:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Where did you see those numbers? Oh I see, you were looking at the first table, which is not a 1-for-1 comparison between white and black arrestees. I don’t think that tells us anything because it doesn’t take into account any differing arrest rates (and differing populations). The 2nd table directly compares black and white arrestees, and death rates for every 100,000 white or black people arrested. So that’s where I draw my conclusion that black people are more likely to be killed in custody – if we look at 100,000 black people currently in custody, and 100,000 white people currently in custody, more black people will be killed, or die by intoxication, or die by accident (or perhaps by “accident”), etc., except by suicide. Thus I think the possibility (just the possibility) that mistreatment is involved remains. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5393 "2015-07-24T11:20:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oh I see, you were looking at the first table, which is not a 1-for-1 comparison between white and black arrestees. I don’t think that tells us anything because it doesn’t take into account any differing arrest rates (and differing populations). The 2nd table directly compares black and white arrestees, and death rates for every 100,000 white or black people arrested. > > So that’s where I draw my conclusion that black people are more likely to be killed in custody – if we look at 100,000 black people currently in custody, and 100,000 white people currently in custody, more black people will be killed, or die by intoxication, or die by accident (or perhaps by “accident”), etc., except by suicide. Thus I think the possibility (just the possibility) that mistreatment is involved remains. You seem to be (unless I’m misunderstanding) taking the statistics for people who die _during arrest_ and saying they’re for deaths _during custody_. The top table looks to be comparing the rates of death by race whilst in jail awaiting trial, if I understand correctly, and seems to say whites are at most risk, hispanics least and blacks in between. It’s quite possible I don’t understand, the article doesn’t contain much analysis or explanation of the figures. And the figures don’t match my intuition either… Have you seen any articles with more analysis of them? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5394 "2015-07-24T11:33:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You seem to be (unless I’m misunderstanding) taking the statistics for people who die _during arrest_ and saying they’re for deaths _during custody_. The top table looks to be comparing the rates of death by race whilst in jail awaiting trial, if I understand correctly, and seems to say whites are at most risk, hispanics least and blacks in between. > > It’s quite possible I don’t understand, the article doesn’t contain much analysis or explanation of the figures. And the figures don’t match my intuition either… Have you seen any articles with more analysis of them? I think you’re right – on second look, the first table is deaths in custody, and does in fact take into account race, so it would appear that this is not evidence of any differing treatment of black people once in custody. Of course, this doesn’t tell us if inmates regardless of race are being mistreated – I’d be curious to compare this to custody-death rates in other first-world countries to see if, say, French inmates are more or less likely to die in custody. The second table is for deaths during arrest (and takes race into account), and could possibly be explained by differing treatment during arrests. It was my mistake to conflate the custody table with the arrest table, and thank you for correcting me. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5395 "2015-07-24T12:42:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you’re right – on second look, the first table is deaths in custody, and does in fact take into account race, so it would appear that this is not evidence of any differing treatment of black people once in custody. Of course, this doesn’t tell us if inmates regardless of race are being mistreated – I’d be curious to compare this to custody-death rates in other first-world countries to see if, say, French inmates are more or less likely to die in custody. > > The second table is for deaths during arrest (and takes race into account), and could possibly be explained by differing treatment during arrests. It was my mistake to conflate the custody table with the arrest table, and thank you for correcting me. Whatever’s happening is a lot more complex than just black people being mistreated for being black. My guess (and that’s all it can be, just looking at bare figures) is that more black people are being arrested for violent crimes, and more white people for non-violent ones, such as fraud - which could be explained by the relative poverty of black people. So, it’s quite possible that the white people are older - leading to more deaths from disease - and richer - leading to the possibility that they have the money or connections to obtain more intoxicants in jail. This would be a good time to point out that, with all the emphasis on young black men committing more violent crime, old white men commit far more _financial_ crime, which arguably harms more people. It’s probably not been mentioned in this thread because there’s little cause (or excuse, depending on your view) for police violence when arresting fraudsters and the like. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5396 "2015-07-24T14:43:32Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > …Now, if you can just highlight which part of that exchange about Smapti’s beliefs you think is answered by reference to state law, that would be useful. Well, entertaining at any rate. Hahahaha. Just as 2 plus 2 always equals 4, I have repeatedly shown that I was responding to a specific post made by **Chimera**. 2 + 2 = 4. You’re inability to understand that simple concept is neither my problem nor my responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5397 "2015-07-24T16:45:51Z")
A Los Angeles Police Department 18-year-veteran was handed a three-year jail term Thursday, six weeks after being found guilty of striking a handcuffed female suspect in the crotch and throat. Much of the 2012 incident was captured on a police cruiser’s dashcam. Officer Mary O’Callaghan, was convicted of felony assault under the color of authority. The 35-year-old victim, Alesia Thomas, died later that July evening. … Superior Court Judge Sam Ohta suspended 20 months from the 36-month sentence. With good behavior, that means the officer could be released in five months.[Cite](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/lapd-cop-gets-3-years-in-jail-for-beating-suspect-caught-on-dashcam/) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5398 "2015-07-24T17:00:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Whatever’s happening is a lot more complex than just black people being mistreated for being black. My guess (and that’s all it can be, just looking at bare figures) is that more black people are being arrested for violent crimes, and more white people for non-violent ones, such as fraud - which could be explained by the relative poverty of black people. So, it’s quite possible that the white people are older - leading to more deaths from disease - and richer - leading to the possibility that they have the money or connections to obtain more intoxicants in jail. Perhaps the data exists to test this hypothesis – if we could look at the ages and genders of the arrestees, we could directly compare young black male arrestees to young white male arrestees. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5399 "2015-07-24T18:49:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps the data exists to test this hypothesis – if we could look at the ages and genders of the arrestees, we could directly compare young black male arrestees to young white male arrestees. I wouldn’t even stretch to calling it a hypothesis, it’s purely a guess. But if the data does say (as it seems) that proportionately more white people than black die in jail, and a lot less hispanics, then something is going on apart from just racism. Another possibility, which would perhaps support the idea that there’s racism in arrests, is that more black people are being wrongly arrested, and released quickly, whereas the white people arrested are correctly arrested and held for longer, so putting them at more risk of suicide and illness. There are many possible explanations for this, as you say more data on arrests would be needed, along with length of time different people spend in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5400 "2015-07-24T19:05:26Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. Just as 2 plus 2 always equals 4, I have repeatedly shown that I was responding to a specific post made by **Chimera**. 2 + 2 = 4. Context. Have you even the vaguest idea what it means? Sorry, rhetorical question, you’ve demonstrated beyond doubt that you have no idea what it means. It means that the post you blindly responded to actually is one in a series, and is a continuation of an earlier question. A question to any lawyers out there - can I pre-emptively book the time spent trying to bring doorhinge up to 2nd grade reading comprehension levels towards any future community service order I might receive? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=269) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=271)