# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 271
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5401 "2015-07-24T19:23:13Z")
doorhinge isn’t nearly as notable as Smapti or Steophan; he’s just dancing around in a desperate bid for attention. It’s kind of pathetic, really, were I inclined to pity and I am not. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5402 "2015-07-24T19:45:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Where did you see those numbers? I was looking at the numbers in the body of the linked article which compared only black arrestees to white arrestees, and they showed (unless I missed something) that black people in custody are more likely to be killed in various ways (except for suicide) than white people in custody: > > Per 100,000 black arrests: > > 3.4 deaths by homicide > .3 deaths by suicide > .8 deaths by intoxication > .4 deaths by accident > .3 deaths by natural causes > .4 deaths by unknown cause > > Per 100,000 white arrests: > > 1.8 deaths by homicide > .5 deaths by suicide > .3 deaths by intoxication > .1 deaths by accident > .2 deaths by natural causes > .1 deaths by unknown cause Ignoring the any possible black vs white discrepancy. These number show how relatively SAFE being ARRESTED by a cop is. Not stopped, ARRESTED. I live near a major highway. Somebody dies on that road with regularity. My WAG is about 30K folks per day. A month or so of driving that highway is more dangerous than any random cop encounter. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5403 "2015-07-24T19:46:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Where did you see those numbers? I was looking at the numbers in the body of the linked article which compared only black arrestees to white arrestees, and they showed (unless I missed something) that black people in custody are more likely to be killed in various ways (except for suicide) than white people in custody: > > Per 100,000 black arrests: > > 3.4 deaths by homicide > .3 deaths by suicide > .8 deaths by intoxication > .4 deaths by accident > .3 deaths by natural causes > .4 deaths by unknown cause > > Per 100,000 white arrests: > > 1.8 deaths by homicide > .5 deaths by suicide > .3 deaths by intoxication > .1 deaths by accident > .2 deaths by natural causes > .1 deaths by unknown cause Ignoring the any possible black vs white discrepancy. These number show how relatively SAFE being ARRESTED by a cop is. Not stopped, ARRESTED. I live near a major highway. Somebody dies on that road with regularity. My WAG is about 30K folks per day drive that road going to/from work. A month or so of driving that highway is more dangerous than any random cop encounter. And that IS a stop were either me or the cop or usually both is dickish enough that the encounter leads to an actual arrest ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5404 "2015-07-24T20:06:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I wouldn’t even stretch to calling it a hypothesis, it’s purely a guess. But if the data does say (as it seems) that proportionately more white people than black die in jail, and a lot less hispanics, then something is going on apart from just racism. > > Another possibility, which would perhaps support the idea that there’s racism in arrests, is that more black people are being wrongly arrested, and released quickly, whereas the white people arrested are correctly arrested and held for longer, so putting them at more risk of suicide and illness. > > There are many possible explanations for this, as you say more data on arrests would be needed, along with length of time different people spend in jail. I commend you for offering the possibility in the second paragraph, which I think challenges some of the notions you’ve previously put forward. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5405 "2015-07-25T02:22:07Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Ignoring the any possible black vs white discrepancy. > > These number show how relatively SAFE being ARRESTED by a cop is. Not stopped, ARRESTED. > > I live near a major highway. Somebody dies on that road with regularity. My WAG is about 30K folks per day drive that road going to/from work. A month or so of driving that highway is more dangerous than any random cop encounter. And that IS a stop were either me or the cop or usually both is dickish enough that the encounter leads to an actual arrest What the fuck? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5406 "2015-07-25T08:38:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I commend you for offering the possibility in the second paragraph, which I think challenges some of the notions you’ve previously put forward. The thing is, it’s pure speculation on my part, because we don’t (based solely on the article you linked to) have any explanations backed with real data. In the past, I’ve questioned using racism as an explanation when there is data that suggests otherwise, and explanations that do fit the data, yet people still claim that racism must somehow be involved. It would (in theory at least) be easy to test my hypothesis, by getting data on how long people stayed in jail before dying. If there was no significant difference between blacks and whites, it would show it was wrong. It would also be easy to look at the ages, and see if there’s a significant difference. Point being, it’s fine to speculate that racism may be involved, or any other factor for that matter, but it’s not fine to claim that any difference _must_ be due to racism. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5407 "2015-07-25T10:37:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The thing is, it’s pure speculation on my part… > > Point being, it’s fine to speculate that racism may be involved… but it’s not fine to claim that any difference _must_ be due to racism. **Steophan** , I’m going to cut you some slack because IIRC you’re from the opposite side of the pond. Use what you _do_ know about America to answer the following question: Can you find examples similar to the Sandra Bland “arrest” where racial identities were reversed, where a black cop mistreated a white driver? Couldn’t even find one, hunh? Now suppose that you did find one. What do you think the public reaction would be in a place like Texas? Do you think there’s any chance that black cop would still have his job? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5408 "2015-07-25T12:57:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Point being, it’s fine to speculate that racism may be involved, or any other factor for that matter, but it’s not fine to claim that any difference _must_ be due to racism. I think that’s what I’ve been doing, even in our disagreements – while I probably have been placing a higher likelihood that racism is involved then you, I’m pretty sure I’ve not stated that some particular statistical difference must necessarily certainly and without a doubt be due to racism. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5409 "2015-07-25T15:23:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think that’s what I’ve been doing, even in our disagreements – while I probably have been placing a higher likelihood that racism is involved then you, I’m pretty sure I’ve not stated that some particular statistical difference must necessarily certainly and without a doubt be due to racism. I think that, at least at first, you phrased things in a way that could easily be interpreted as though you thought it must be racism, and that even if the statistics don’t show it anecdotal evidence shows it _is_ racism, rather than shows that it needs further examination. I think that in many situations, not just race, people assume prejudice or bigotry when something bad happens to them, even if it’s not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5410 "2015-07-25T15:36:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > **Steophan** , I’m going to cut you some slack because IIRC you’re from the opposite side of the pond. Use what you _do_ know about America to answer the following question: > > Can you find examples similar to the Sandra Bland “arrest” where racial identities were reversed, where a black cop mistreated a white driver? Couldn’t even find one, hunh? Now suppose that you did find one. What do you think the public reaction would be in a place like Texas? Do you think there’s any chance that black cop would still have his job? I can only speak for myself, and say that if I were mistreated by a cop I wouldn’t consider his (or my) race to be a factor unless it was made explicit. I suspect that would be the case in much of America, including parts of Texas - from what I know of that state it contains some of the most and the least progressive (for want of a better term) people in America. I’m not aware of any situations where a black cop has been sacked but a white one wouldn’t be, and as you say I can’t find much in the way of reports of black cop/white citizen mistreatment - the only ones I find on Google are on racist blogs. Again, possibly because like most black-on-white crime, it’s not considered racist or racially motivated. I also think it’s correct that the vast majority of such crime isn’t a hate crime. So, I’d expect if I did find one, unless the cop was explicitly racist, he wouldn’t be sacked - unless the offence was so bad that it would have got any other cop sacked. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5411 "2015-07-25T17:32:57Z")
[In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.](In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.) I think history will show that the heightened police brutality we’re experiencing right now can be traced directly to the War on Terror. We’re reaping here what we have sown elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5412 "2015-07-25T19:52:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.](In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.) [Fixed link](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/2015/07/24/2e114e54-2b02-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5413 "2015-07-25T21:09:40Z")
So he laid still, didn’t make any sudden movements, kept his hands where thcould be seen, complied fully with police officers, and _he survived completely unhurt?_ It’s almost as if what I’ve been saying over the past 100 pages of thread actually _works_. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5414 "2015-07-25T21:14:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So he laid still, didn’t make any sudden movements, kept his hands where thcould be seen, complied fully with police officers, and _he survived completely unhurt?_ > > It’s almost as if what I’ve been saying over the past 100 pages of thread actually _works_. Hey, Let’s not get carried away now. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5415 "2015-07-25T22:14:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So he laid still, didn’t make any sudden movements, kept his hands where thcould be seen, complied fully with police officers, and _he survived completely unhurt?_ > > It’s almost as if what I’ve been saying over the past 100 pages of thread actually _works_. They should have shot him anyway, for equality. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5416 "2015-07-25T22:15:56Z")
No, the whole point of the story is that those type of police actions make the public distrust the police. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5417 "2015-07-25T23:50:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.](In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.) > > I think history will show that the heightened police brutality we’re experiencing right now can be traced directly to the War on Terror. We’re reaping here what we have sown elsewhere. Agree, but think it got a running start with the War On (Some) Drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5418 "2015-07-26T01:50:37Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Having a stroke? Perhaps this taser and some pepper spray might help. It’s cool right? How 'bout if we call you “Sir”. Yee-haw. > [SEE IT: Virginia cop resigns after using Taser, pepper spray on possible stroke victim – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/va-resigns-taser-pepper-spray-stroke-victim-article-1.2232948) I don’t think there was any response to this upthread! Those of you in this thread who are finding themselves more inclined to defend police actions than others in this thread: Does the _above_ seem to you to be a clear case of police using violence inappropriately? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5419 "2015-07-26T02:24:20Z")
That cop should not have been given the chance to quit. He should have been fired. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5420 "2015-07-26T02:52:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.](In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.) > > I think history will show that the heightened police brutality we’re experiencing right now can be traced directly to the War on Terror. We’re reaping here what we have sown elsewhere. Good article. Same lesson as in the 1988 film _Colors_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=270) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=272)