# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 279
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5561 "2015-07-29T16:14:54Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > [My italics] > > This is the justification for defending the officer’s arrest? There’s also no evidence that the officer did not vigorously roger Mr. Wingate with the golfclub while screaming Heil Hitler. I’m just saying. On the strength of the non-evidence, we’re forced to conclude it’s probable. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5562 "2015-07-29T17:29:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Officials in Cincinnati announced Wednesday that a University of Cincinnati police officer has been indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed black man during a traffic stop earlier this month. “It was so unnecessary for this to occur,” Joe Deters, the Hamilton County prosecutor, said at a news conference Wednesday. > > Sam Dubose, 43, was shot and killed during a July 19 traffic stop by Officer Ray Tensing. The officer initially said he was dragged by Dubose’s car, leading to the shooting. Deters said that Dubose “was subdued,” adding that Tensing had his license plate number… While a university police report stated that Tensing said he had been dragged by the car before shooting, Deters said that the officer not dragged. Rather, Tensing fell backwards after shooting Dubose in the head, Deters said. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/07/29/prosecutors-to-announce-conclusion-of-probe-into-cincinnati-campus-police-shooting/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/07/29/prosecutors-to-announce-conclusion-of-probe-into-cincinnati-campus-police-shooting/) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5563 "2015-07-29T18:22:08Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/07/29/prosecutors-to-announce-conclusion-of-probe-into-cincinnati-campus-police-shooting/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/07/29/prosecutors-to-announce-conclusion-of-probe-into-cincinnati-campus-police-shooting/) Later in the article they mention that another officer at the scene lied about what happened to make it seem like a good shooting. I hope they charge that other lying fucker too. Thank god for body cams–without them this would have been called a legitimate shooting and the officer would have been called a hero. Because the officer was wearing a body cam, even though certain members of society and this board might still call him a hero, luckily they’ll be in the minority. Good on the prosecutor for charging this case. I still think we need an independent prosecutor to investigate officer-related shootings, but at least this time it’s working out. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5564 "2015-07-29T18:23:08Z")
But according to S&S, that cop had every right to blow that man away! ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5565 "2015-07-29T18:26:52Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > But according to S&S, that cop had every right to blow that man away! Yeah, how do we know that the driver _was not_ thinking about running the cop over? Better shoot him to be safe. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5566 "2015-07-29T18:42:30Z")
The officer is claiming he was in fear for his life. That’s the criterion, right? What does any video or indictment or prosecution have to contribute that could contradict the officer’s own fear for his life? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5567 "2015-07-29T18:49:44Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Officials in Cincinnati announced Wednesday that a University of Cincinnati police officer has been indicted for fatally shooting an unarmed black man during a traffic stop earlier this month. “It was so unnecessary for this to occur,” Joe Deters, the Hamilton County prosecutor, said at a news conference Wednesday. > > > > Sam Dubose, 43, was shot and killed during a July 19 traffic stop by Officer Ray Tensing. The officer initially said he was dragged by Dubose’s car, leading to the shooting. Deters said that Dubose “was subdued,” adding that Tensing had his license plate number… While a university police report stated that Tensing said he had been dragged by the car before shooting, Deters said that the officer not dragged. Rather, Tensing fell backwards after shooting Dubose in the head, Deters said. > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/07/29/prosecutors-to-announce-conclusion-of-probe-into-cincinnati-campus-police-shooting/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/07/29/prosecutors-to-announce-conclusion-of-probe-into-cincinnati-campus-police-shooting/) Here’s the body cam video of the stop. The action starts around 4:00, which is where it should start if the follow the link. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jRxGVeI5JE&t=4m) Honestly, I can’t figure out what’s going on near the end. It looks like the officer shot him and then the car rolled away, or something? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5568 "2015-07-29T18:58:27Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Here’s the body cam video of the stop. The action starts around 4:00, which is where it should start if the follow the link. > [https://youtu.be/3jRxGVeI5JE?t=4m](https://youtu.be/3jRxGVeI5JE?t=4m) > Honestly, I can’t figure out what’s going on near the end. It looks like the officer shot him and then the car rolled away, or something? It looks like the cop told the driver to step out, the driver started the car, the cop shot him and I’m guessing that caused the driver’s foot to mash the gas pedal, the car took off and plowed into something then stopped. Motherfucker. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5569 "2015-07-29T19:17:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The officer is claiming he was in fear for his life. That’s the criterion, right? No. Never has been, and no-one, ever, on this board has claimed it to be. You lying, straw-manning arsehole. > [@](#): > > What does any video or indictment or prosecution have to contribute that could contradict the officer’s own fear for his life? As that’s not the standard, it doesn’t matter. It’s necessary for him to have been in fear for his life, but not sufficient. If the evidence proves that no reasonable person could have been in fear for their life, then it’s murder. To quote from the article, “This office has probably reviewed upwards of hundreds of police shootings, and this is the first time that we’ve thought this is without question a murder”. Sounds about right, one in hundreds of these stupid “controversies” is actually a serious crime. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5570 "2015-07-29T19:22:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No. Never has been, and no-one, ever, on this board has claimed it to be. You lying, straw-manning arsehole. It is not quite the clear straw man you’re making it out to be. **Bricker** for example has stated that he would credit the “lighter=threat” testimony despite agreeing that it seems on the face of it preposterous. You have stated that the defendant should be given all the benefit of the doubt, in the context of explaining why it should be believed that a policeman fears for his life. If the principle you guys are referring to isn’t either “Policemen should be trusted when they say they are in fear for their lives” or something that implies that, then you owe us an explanation as to what that principle is. Because it very much looks like that is your principle. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5571 "2015-07-29T19:34:11Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > It is not quite the clear straw man you’re making it out to be. **Bricker** for example has stated that he would credit the “lighter=threat” testimony despite agreeing that it seems on the face of it preposterous. You have stated that the defendant should be given all the benefit of the doubt, in the context of explaining why it should be believed that a policeman fears for his life. Of course they should be given the benefit of the doubt, same as any defendant. > [@](#): > > If the principle you guys are referring to isn’t either “Policemen should be trusted when they say they are in fear for their lives” or something that implies that, then you owe us an explanation as to what that principle is. Because it very much looks like that is your principle. It looks nothing like that, and you well know it. Stop deliberately twisting things. Some one who claims to have acted in self defence is, in law, innocent until proven guilty (in 49 states, as discussed earlier). Doesn’t matter whether or not you believe them, you have to prove not only that they’re lying but specifically that the opposite of what they said was true. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5572 "2015-07-29T19:47:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It looks nothing like that, and you well know it. Stop deliberately twisting things. Someone as determinedly misunderstood as you might consider trying to restate their positions more clearly. Just a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5573 "2015-07-29T20:06:41Z")
[Authorities: Off-Duty Trooper Fired at Car With 3 Inside](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/authorities-off-duty-trooper-fired-car-teens-inside-32755328) > [@](#): > > Authorities say an off-duty New Jersey state trooper fired three shots at a car with three young men inside who had knocked on his door by mistake early Sunday. > > The Attorney General’s office says the trooper suspected the three were trying to enter his Sparta residence. > > Police say two 18-year-olds and a 19-year-old fled after a verbal exchange. _They got in their car and drove away and the trooper fired when the car did not stop. No one was injured._ > > Authorities say the unidentified officer used his personal weapon. No criminal charges have been filed and the shooting remains under investigation. > > One of the three, Jesse Barkhorn, says they knocked on the door by mistake while looking for the house of a friend who lives next door. My italics Mmmm… Shouldn’t the trooper have shot them at his door (claiming fear for his life; and maybe with some justification)? Shooting at a fleeing car? How is **Smapti** going to spin that? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5574 "2015-07-29T20:10:01Z")
The officer in that case Is claiming the case was dragging him. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5575 "2015-07-29T20:12:54Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > The officer in that case Is claiming the case was dragging him. This case too? I think that’s what the UC cop was claiming. Three times is a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5576 "2015-07-29T20:14:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No. Never has been, and no-one, ever, on this board has claimed it to be. You lying, straw-manning arsehole. False. Smapti makes a career of claiming cops have every right to kill people when they can even remotely claim to be in fear. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5577 "2015-07-29T21:23:34Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > False. Smapti makes a career of claiming cops have every right to kill people when they can even remotely claim to be in fear. Nope. You need to actually read people posts occasionally, rather than just whatever you want to be there so it’s easier for you to argue about. **Smapti** also thinks cops should only shoot when it’s reasonable for them to feel fear - but he has a much more inclusive view of when that would be reasonable than anybody else. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5578 "2015-07-29T21:24:39Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Here’s the body cam video of the stop. The action starts around 4:00, which is where it should start if the follow the link. > [https://youtu.be/3jRxGVeI5JE?t=4m](https://youtu.be/3jRxGVeI5JE?t=4m) > Honestly, I can’t figure out what’s going on near the end. It looks like the officer shot him and then the car rolled away, or something? I notice that the vehicle’s engine is not running while the officer approaches the car and driver. After repeatedly ignoring the officer’s request to produce his drivers license: at 5:52 in the linked video, the suspect reaches for the driver’s door with his left hand and reaches for the ignition key with his right hand. at 5:54, the suspect starts his vehicle and puts it in gear. at 5:55, the officer says stop. at 5:56, the officer repeats his command to stop. at 5:57, the officer fires a shot at the fleeing vehicle’s driver. the moving, in forward-gear, vehicle rolls to a dead stop farther down the road. It looks like the car was rolling away, and then the officer shot the driver. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5579 "2015-07-29T21:37:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > **Smapti** also thinks cops should only shoot when it’s reasonable for them to feel fear - but he has a much more inclusive view of when that would be reasonable than anybody else. It seems to include “Fear that they might have to do some paperwork,” and “Fear that they might not get home in time for dinner.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5580 "2015-07-29T21:39:01Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > This case too? I think that’s what the UC cop was claiming. > > Three times is a pattern. Sorry, I meant “car” not “case”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=278) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=280)