# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 282
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5621 "2015-07-30T18:38:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > We give the police power over us on the condition that they will wield it responsibly, and the burden lies on them to demonstrate that they have done so. They nonetheless receive the same level of due process as anyone else. Note the obvious contradiction there… ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5622 "2015-07-30T18:52:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I believe correct policy is to take out the toddlers first, so the flash-bang should go in the crib. And if there are no children, it should go straight in the nearest elderly person’s lap. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5623 "2015-07-30T18:54:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Note the obvious contradiction there… Not to speak for **Gyrate** , but I think the only way to get a contradiction out of this is if you don’t know the difference between “demonstrate responsibility” and “due process”. As an example–which may not work for you because I suspect you are unemployed–I am required to “demonstrate responsibility” to keep my job. However, that does not violate my constitutional rights. You have made over 500 posts to this thread, and so far as I can tell have been unable to convince anyone of anything. Do you suppose there’s a reason for that? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5624 "2015-07-30T18:57:56Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Not to speak for **Gyrate** You have made over 500 posts to this thread, and so far as I can tell have been unable to convince anyone of anything. Do you suppose there’s a reason for that? I’m convinced of something, but it’s not the validity of **Steophan’s** arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5625 "2015-07-30T20:28:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If those civilians had guns and shot the _other civilian_ because they were in fear of their lives, then they would be entitled to claim self-defense, yes. Wait, a second. I thought there was no real “Off duty” for police? This guy also flashed his badge. Pretty sure his intent was to be identified as a cop. You know, as a way to let the civilian know that he was in the presence of a self-entitled, egomaniac, thugish asshole… although I think his words did that for him. No need to tip his hand like that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5626 "2015-07-30T20:48:37Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Wait, a second. I thought there was no real “Off duty” for police? > > This guy also flashed his badge. Pretty sure his intent was to be identified as a cop. In that case, he is abusing his authority and should be appropriately disciplined. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5627 "2015-07-30T20:48:49Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I believe correct policy is to take out the toddlers first, so the flash-bang should go in the crib. No no! The first thing to do is shoot all the family pets. Then go after the toddlers. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5628 "2015-07-30T21:01:54Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > No no! The first thing to do is shoot all the family pets. Then go after the toddlers. Bunch of fucking military wannabe motherfucking cowards, if you ask me. [http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-department-shot-92-dogs-years-officers-killed-25/](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-department-shot-92-dogs-years-officers-killed-25/) “Perhaps an even more disturbing reality is that nearly 30 percent of these dog shootings in Buffalo were carried out by one man. The unidentified officer has shot 26 dogs, killing 25 of them, in just the last three years.” “Earlier this month we reported the story of a SWAT team responding a dispute between two neighbors and _ **then shooting a small dog as it ran away from them** _.” ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5629 "2015-07-30T21:18:20Z")
I remember when they raided the Mayor’s house (illegally) and shot his pets, one of which was running from the SWAT team. The cops never backed down, because they never do. [It’s a fucking national tragedy](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html). Look motherfuckers, this shit isn’t winning you any friends or support. Except for mentally damaged fuckheads, nobody supports people who bust into a families house and shoot their pets. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5630 "2015-07-30T21:35:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cute, but wrong. > > The key phrase in the article is “off-duty trooper”. This is not a “controversial encounter between law enforcement and civilians” - it’s an encounter between two groups of civilians, one of whom happened to be a cop but was not acting as an agent of the law at the time. > > As such it is not relevant to this thread. Wait. Are you saying that common citizens have less rights when it comes to protecting themselves when they are in imminent danger? Or are you saying that police have less responsibility in determining whether they are actually in danger? What, exactly, are you saying? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5631 "2015-07-30T21:50:44Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > I remember when they raided the Mayor’s house (illegally) and shot his pets, one of which was running from the SWAT team. > > The cops never backed down, because they never do. > > [It’s a fucking national tragedy](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html). > > Look motherfuckers, this shit isn’t winning you any friends or support. Except for mentally damaged fuckheads, nobody supports people who bust into a families house and shoot their pets. I had not heard of that case before, but I am not sure why you are posting it here. There was nothing controversial about the event. They mayor clearly had drugs in his house and the police had to do something. I know that no-knock raids were only legal when chasing a fleeing criminal, but so what, police do not need to follow the law when they are doing their duty (right Smapti?). Finally, any reasonable police officer would have been afraid of the dog even though it was running away. I mean did you read the story? It was a black lab. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5632 "2015-07-30T22:35:08Z")
The black Labrador is the most treacherous of the canine breeds. At least pit bulls and the like are up front about it, the Lab has been known to pretend to being affectionate and devoted for years upon years while it plots an outrage. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5633 "2015-07-30T22:47:10Z")
For the record, I approve of the sarcasm above. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5634 "2015-07-30T22:48:44Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I mean did you read the story? I followed the story at the time, it was on TV as well. The shooting of the family pet, running away in fear, made the cops look like the misguided idiots they often have become. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5635 "2015-07-31T00:29:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “Perhaps an even more disturbing reality is that nearly 30 percent of these dog shootings in Buffalo were carried out by one man. The unidentified officer has shot 26 dogs, killing 25 of them, in just the last three years.” > > “Earlier this month we reported the story of a SWAT team responding a dispute between two neighbors and _ **then shooting a small dog as it ran away from them** _.” I consider myself an open minded fella. I realize that other, opposing viewpoints may have some validity , so I reserve judgment…but he shot 26 dogs in 3 years. There is no way, NO FUCKING WAY, that it can’t be fucked up. This guy is a problem. One dog, sure. Two dogs, OK. Maybe even several a year, I will allow that as many as 10 dogs may have been rabid and\or threatening to him some way. But 26??? This guy just likes shooting dogs. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5636 "2015-07-31T00:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Two University of Cincinnati police officers involved in a colleague’s recent fatal shooting of Samuel DuBose also were on hand for a 2010 struggle with a psychiatric patient who later died. > > Officers Eric Weibel and Phillip Kidd were among seven University of Cincinnati police officers and other officials named in a lawsuit alleging the wrongful death of Kelly Brinson, a 45-year-old mentally ill university hospital patient. Hospital staff summoned officers to help subdue Brinson, who became agitated when put in seclusion, according to court documents first reported by The Guardian. Kidd and Weibel gave written statements that they restrained Brinson, while another officer used a Taser stun gun on him. > > Brinson went into cardiac arrest and died days later > **[Officers Involved In Samuel DuBose Shooting Were Sued In Earlier Death Of...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/samuel-dubose-officers-sued_n_55baa370e4b0d4f33a023260)** > > The two officers restrained a mentally ill patient while another cop shot him with a stun gun. I’m just not up on modern medical techniques: I always thought that mentally ill patients in a hospital setting were given sedatives if they became agitated. I didn’t realize the modern method was to use a Taser on them. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5637 "2015-07-31T02:07:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cute, but wrong. > > The key phrase in the article is “off-duty trooper”. This is not a “controversial encounter between law enforcement and civilians” - it’s an encounter between two groups of civilians, one of whom happened to be a cop but was not acting as an agent of the law at the time. > > As such it is not relevant to this thread. The cop arrested two of them after shooting their vehicle into breaking down, then called in an extensive police manhunt for the one teen that escaped him, including a helicopter and forced searches of private homes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5638 "2015-07-31T04:52:51Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > The cop arrested two of them after shooting their vehicle into breaking down, then called in an extensive police manhunt for the one teen that escaped him, including a helicopter and forced searches of private homes. That was a _citizen’s_ arrest! And a _citizen’s_ manhunt! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5639 "2015-07-31T09:18:05Z")
Over in GD the libtards are still questioning the arrest of Sandra Bland. I decided to answer then here where we can speak more frankly. First, both sides agree that the perp was holding a weapon. A lit cigarette may not qualify as a _lethal_ weapon but it can maim and _do grievous bodily harm_ if poked into the officer’s eye, and _that’s the standard for self-defense_. Clearly the officer would have been justified in firing his weapon until the woman was no longer capable of operating her weapon. It would have been a good clean kill. But the officer didn’t shoot; he simply arrested the woman for assault. I think that shows restraint on his part, but the criminal coddlers apparently demand a higher standard for arrest than applies to a self-defense kill! What’s the logic in that? Commended for valor if he shoots her, but condemned for an arrest. With libtards like that blaring out their Marxist pro-criminal blather on YouTube and SDMB, it’s no wonder LEOs are starting to prefer good clean kills over the paperwork and second-guessing of an arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2015, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5640 "2015-07-31T11:15:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Not to speak for **Gyrate** , but I think the only way to get a contradiction out of this is if you don’t know the difference between “demonstrate responsibility” and “due process”. As an example–which may not work for you because I suspect you are unemployed–I am required to “demonstrate responsibility” to keep my job. However, that does not violate my constitutional rights. To clarify: we let police shoot people in the performance of their function but they then have to demonstrate that it was necessary (via due process), in the same way that a civilian killing another in self-defense must demonstrate the necessity. We don’t (or rather we shouldn’t) just take their word for it without proof, and it’s only a contradiction if you think making police officers justify taking a human life is a bad thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=281) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=283)