# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 295
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5881 "2015-08-08T15:25:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There’s not enough information in this article to come to a conclusion. Your leap to “White cop executes innocent black youth because **RACISM** ” is the unfounded one. No, there isn’t; that’s why it’s in the “Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians” thread and not the “Non-controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians” thread. I didn’t invoke any reason for the shooting, did I? No, I didn’t. I didn’t proclaim that racism was at the heart of anything, I was pointing out facts; facts that have become all too commonplace in the US and, lately, in the news. Facts that you’d like to ignore. Nothing in my post indicates that I’ve made up my mind about things here, but your previous post certainly seems to indicates that you’ve reached a conclusion. In fact, my post didn’t indict either of the people involved, but your post certainly did seem to indict one of them and acquit the other. Did you buy your Jump To Conclusions Mat yourself, or was it a gift? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5882 "2015-08-08T15:30:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I didn’t invoke any reason for the shooting, did I? No, I didn’t. I didn’t proclaim that racism was at the heart of anything, I was pointing out facts; facts that have become all too commonplace in the US and, lately, in the news. Facts that you’d like to ignore. And why do you think those facts are in any way _relevant_? Do we typically allow white people to drive their cars through the front of buildings and assault police with impunity? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5883 "2015-08-08T15:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Taylor had reportedly driven an SUV through the dealership’s metal gate, before getting out of the vehicle and damaging a car in the parking lot, leading the firm’s security company to call 911. He had then climbed back into the SUV and driven through the showroom glass, it is alleged. > **[Training police officer fatally shoots unarmed college football player](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3190037/Texas-police-officer-training-fatally-shoots-unarmed-19-year-old-college-football-player.html)** > > Christian Taylor was killed by Officer Brad Miller at the Classic Buick GMC dealership in Arlington, Texas early Friday morning. Police said they were responding to a burglary in progress. It sounds like he was either drunk or high on drugs–and that could have made him belligerent and fighting instead of obeying the policy officer. Note the police officer who shot him was a rookie. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5884 "2015-08-08T18:01:55Z")
More on the Zachary Hammond shooting: > [@](#): > > The Hammond family commissioned an independent autopsy, which found the evidence was “consistent with (Hammond) being seated in a motor vehicle and being shot from the side of the vehicle through an open driver’s side window,” according to that report. > > Bland said Hammond’s wounds indicate the vehicle was not moving, and that the teen was shot on the rear of his shoulder and on the side of his chest. > > The independent autopsy report also said “it will be critical to evaluate” Hammond’s shirt to determine how close he was to the shooter. [http://www.wptv.com/news/national/zachary-hammond-south-carolina-officer-shoots-unarmed-teen-during-pot-bust](http://www.wptv.com/news/national/zachary-hammond-south-carolina-officer-shoots-unarmed-teen-during-pot-bust) If this is true then the officer’s life was not in danger. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5885 "2015-08-08T20:17:16Z")
[Fairfax police officer Adam Torres, who killed John Geer in 2013, is fired](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fairfax-police-officer-adam-torres-killed-john-geer-in-2013-is-fired/2015/08/07/8dc14b14-3d41-11e5-8e98-115a3cf7d7ae_story.html?tid=hpModule_13097a0c-868e-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394&hpid=z10) > [@](#): > > Other officers soon arrived, including Officer Rodney Barnes, a former Navy seaman and trained negotiator, and Officers David Parker and Benjamin Kushner. Barnes told detectives that he was speaking cordially with Geer as Torres kept his pistol aimed at Geer’s chest from about 17 feet. Parker and Kushner were behind Torres. > > Suddenly, while Barnes was still trying to persuade Geer to come outside, Torres fired one shot. Geer spun around, closed the front door and fell. Barnes reported hearing movement inside the house, and officers were aware that Geer had other guns. Police waited an hour before rendering aid, but Geer was dead just inside the door. > > Torres, accompanied by Carroll, his attorney, told detectives four days after the shooting that Geer “brought both his hands down in a quick motion towards his waist, and I fired a shot right through the screen door and hit him.” > > But Barnes, Parker, Kushner and a fourth officer, Lt. Ron Manzo, all said Geer had his hands near his head or shoulders. Don Geer and John Geer’s best friend, Jeff Stewart, also witnessed the shooting and said Geer’s hands were near his head. Kinda strange case. The police chief refused to turn over paperwork to the prosecutor, but the shooter’s fellow officers at the scene didn’t back up his story. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5886 "2015-08-09T16:56:27Z")
Another interesting piece in the _Post_: [A year after Michael Brown’s fatal shooting, unarmed black men are seven times more likely than whites to die by police gunfire](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/08/08/black-and-unarmed/?hpid=z1) > [@](#): > > So far this year, 24 unarmed black men have been shot and killed by police - one every nine days, according to a Washington Post database of fatal police shootings. During a single two-week period in April, three unarmed black men were shot and killed. All three shootings were either captured on video or, in one case, broadcast live on local TV. > > Those 24 cases constitute a surprisingly small fraction of the 585 people shot and killed by police through Friday evening, according to The Post database. Most of those killed were white or Hispanic, and the vast majority of victims of all races were armed. > > However, black men accounted for 40 percent of the 60 unarmed deaths, even though they make up just 6 percent of the U.S. population. The Post’s analysis shows that black men were seven times more likely than white men to die by police gunfire while unarmed. But these statistics are explainable because of unarmed “black culture”, right, **Steophan**? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5887 "2015-08-09T17:06:46Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > [A year after Michael Brown’s fatal shooting, unarmed black men are seven times more likely than whites to die by police gunfire](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/08/08/black-and-unarmed/?hpid=z1) > > But these statistics are explainable because of unarmed “black culture”, right, **Steophan**? Wasn’t “blacks are 14 times more likely to be shot by police” the number everyone was throwing around breathlessly last year? You’d think you’d be more relieved to learn that we’ve reduced that number by half in such a short amount of time. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5888 "2015-08-09T18:00:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Wasn’t “blacks are 14 times more likely to be shot by police” the number everyone was throwing around breathlessly last year? > > You’d think you’d be more relieved to learn that we’ve reduced that number by half in such a short amount of time. Good to know that you think a 7-fold discrepancy is cause for relief. Well not really. If this trend continues, are you going to be upset in two years when white men are 7x more likely to be killed by police? (See, to help you with your perception of the trend: last year = 14x; this year (and it’s only several weeks more than half over) = 7x; next year will be zero; and then if this trend continues, two years from now it will be -7x. You’re right, **Smapti** , that’s amazing progress!) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5889 "2015-08-09T18:26:53Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > But these statistics are explainable because of unarmed “black culture”, right, **Steophan**? Yes, specifically the part of black culture that means young black men are several times more likely to commit violent crime than _any_ other group, as has been exhaustively discussed and proven in this and several other threads. The figures were cited as 6-10 times more likely, and one source had 14 times. That police response is at the lower end of proportionate should not be considered a problem. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5890 "2015-08-09T18:55:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, specifically the part of black culture that means young black men are several times more likely to commit violent crime than _any_ other group, as has been exhaustively discussed and proven in this and several other threads. > > The figures were cited as 6-10 times more likely, and one source had 14 times. That police response is at the lower end of proportionate should not be considered a problem. So, because you say that young black men as a demographic group commit crimes at a rate 6-14 times higher than other groups, in your view, the police should be killing individual, unarmed black men at the same rate. Just to be safe. Got it. I think **iiandyii** asked you at what rate would it become unacceptable, or a “problem”, as you put it, to shoot unarmed black men? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5891 "2015-08-09T20:06:38Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I think **iiandyii** asked you at what rate would it become unacceptable, or a “problem”, as you put it, to shoot unarmed black men? The difference between me and **Steophan** on this, IIRC, was that the disparity that I find concerning enough to suspect a significant possibility of some sort of mistreatment is significantly lower than the disparity that would cause **Steophan** to start to suspect that there might be a significant possibility of some sort of mistreatment, but I don’t recall that we drilled down to a specific number on his part. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5892 "2015-08-09T21:12:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The difference between me and **Steophan** on this, IIRC, was that the disparity that I find concerning enough to suspect a significant possibility of some sort of mistreatment is significantly lower than the disparity that would cause **Steophan** to start to suspect that there might be a significant possibility of some sort of mistreatment, but I don’t recall that we drilled down to a specific number on his part. Yeah, I don’t remember the details. But, let’s say young black males are charged with crimes at a rate 100x higher than other groups, according to **Steophan’s** reasoning unarmed black males should be expected to be killed at a similar rate. But the some of the unarmed black men in the _Post’s_ article were in their 40’s, so they’re not the demographic committing violent crimes he’s referring to and they must have learned some wisdom with regard to interacting with the police to survive to “old age”. And I don’t know if he’s differentiating between “young black males who commit violent crime” [at a rate 6-14 higher than other groups] and “unarmed black men” [who are killed at a rate 7x higher than whites], because the latter was the subject of the _Post_ article. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5893 "2015-08-09T22:22:20Z")
“Unarmed” and “committing a violent crime” are not mutually exclusive. That someone is unarmed does not mean that they can’t be a threat to life or limb, and so be killed in self defence. As for “some of the black men being killed being in their forties”, how many? Was it a disproportionate amount? Have any of the investigations shown that the killings were unjustified? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5894 "2015-08-09T23:55:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That someone is unarmed does not mean that they can’t be a threat to life or limb, and so be killed in self defence. But the response must be proportional. If cops respond to every threat with a bullet, they are guilty of excessive force. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5895 "2015-08-10T00:11:22Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5896 "2015-08-10T04:03:37Z")
Anyone who hasn’t seen this interview yet should watch it: [Baltimore ex cop discusses police violence toward young black men](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/08/baltimore_ex_cop_discusses_police_violence_toward_young_black_men.html). Incredible, frightening, insight. Our system is so broken, and I’m not sure what the solution is. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5897 "2015-08-10T04:40:06Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Anyone who hasn’t seen this interview yet should watch it: > > [Baltimore ex cop discusses police violence toward young black men](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/08/baltimore_ex_cop_discusses_police_violence_toward_young_black_men.html). > > Incredible, frightening, insight. Our system is so broken, and I’m not sure what the solution is. Brief article but no video at that page for me. When I search the site I see the story and video as a link, but it just takes me to the page you linked, still sans video. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5898 "2015-08-10T05:17:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Brief article but no video at that page for me. When I search the site I see the story and video as a link, but it just takes me to the page you linked, still sans video. I scroll down a bit and successfully click a video on the left. The cop blames _cop’s fear_ for citizen mistreatment, calling some other cops “pussies.” He also thinks police obejectives should be crime reduction and problem-solving, rather than number of arrests. There are so many crimes that can be charged that it is easy to make arrests; many are in effect arrested just “for being black.”. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5899 "2015-08-10T05:17:36Z")
I see the video from the link just fine. Using Chrome browser. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/5900 "2015-08-10T10:27:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But the response must be proportional. If cops respond to every threat with a bullet, they are guilty of excessive force. If they are a threat to life or limb, shooting them is proportional. Not just for cops, for anyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=294) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=296)