# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/41 "2014-10-10T20:42:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Because civil and criminal forfeiture require a judicial decison, and administrative forfeiture can be challenged, at which point it has to stop and a judicial forfeiture proceeding begin I’m not sure if this is really the reason, or it’s more that the action in civil forfeiture is directed against the property itself, not the individual. The individual owner is a third party in the suit. Since the action is against property, the burden of proof is lower, probable rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. Conveniently, no conviction or even charges of a crime are necessary to conduct the asset seizure. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/42 "2014-10-10T20:58:22Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Actually, the plural of anecdote is data. No, actually data is the plural of datum. > [@](#): > > While you are perusing the dictionary, you might also want to look up the definition of “seem” as well. In this context, it means getting caught making a wild exaggeration based on cherry-picked information. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/43 "2014-10-10T21:00:34Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > There’s no evidence thus far to indicate he didn’t violate the law to at best a criminally negligent degree. Whatever one thinks of the Ferguson case, this is a rather problematic formulation, in my opinion. There is also no evidence to indicate that i didn’t violate the law yesterday. But our criminal justice system requires more than that; if i’m to be convicted, it requires positive proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that i DID violate the law. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/44 "2014-10-10T22:26:57Z")
I fought the law and the law won. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/45 "2014-10-10T22:31:18Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Having this thread is probably a better idea than the suggestion I was about to make of a forum name change to “The Police Blotter”. Maybe a stickey… Monday Morning Police Rant Thread. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/46 "2014-10-11T01:51:16Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Maybe a stickey… > Monday Morning Police Rant Thread. The Right To Remain Silent ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/47 "2014-10-11T12:28:29Z")
> **[WATCH: Arrested For Drinking Iced Tea?](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/christopher-beatty-arrest-iced-tea_n_3232925)** > > WATCH: Arrested For Drinking Iced Tea? > **[Mall Cop Reportedly Pepper-Sprays Black Man, Ignores Racist Heckler](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mall-cop-pepper-sprays-black-man_n_5679297)** > > Mall Cop Reportedly Pepper-Sprays Black Man, Ignores Racist Heckler ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/48 "2014-10-11T14:27:16Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Nope. They have always been this way. If you were black, Puerto Rican or poor. There was never any recourse. No one believed us when we complained about the treatment we were receiving. Or they didn’t care. Or blamed us. > > The only difference is the video proof. And even with the video proof, people still blame us. Or don’t care. > [@Kimstu](#): > > _The ACLU: Protecting your civil liberties from the government, **without** wasting time on self-aggrandizing government-bashing anti-tax “libertarian theater”, since 1920._ Excellent ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/49 "2014-10-11T14:44:42Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > The only difference is the video proof. And even with the video proof, people still blame us. Or don’t care. Of course. Welcome to America. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/50 "2014-10-11T16:07:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to a study from [ProPublica](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/10/racial-disparity-police-killings_n_5965706.html), young black males are a whopping _21 times more likely_ to be shot dead by police than young white males. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Any comments on this study? Is this surprising to anyone? Any problems with the data (other than that there’s not a whole lot of it)? Not surprising. I wonder if things are getting worse or better, though. And it would be nice to see it broken down by state. It’s also interesting to note that of the people killed by black police officers, almost 80% are black. But there can be no doubt that we have, somehow, created a society where young black men are seen as a threat. How we undo that, I just don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/51 "2014-10-11T16:10:52Z")
“Whatever one thinks of the Ferguson case, this is a rather problematic formulation, in my opinion.” My observation was just a flipped approach to saying “so far, the evidence reflects that the police officer behaved, at best, in a criminally negligent fashion.” So far, in the public domain, there is what he told a friend, who in turn disseminated it in a radio (?) interview. And his story does not line up with all the other evidence, including that of many witnesses. “But our criminal justice system requires more than that; if i’m to be convicted, it requires positive proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that i DID violate the law.” Please note that we have not yet even entered the phase/territory of an indictment. Talking about the standard required to convict is not relevant at this point. The prosecutor has decided that there is probable cause to proceed (indeed, there is far more than probable cause). Standard required to convict will become relevant only if and when charges are handed down. This officer is already receiving light years beyond treatment any average citizen would receive (and that is the institutional organism at work … to be expected). Were he not possessed of a badge, he’d have been indicted in short order. I suspect that’d be true even if there’d been video that captured every detail. The prosecutor certainly is going above and beyond by, in effect, presenting a dry run of the case and the only component missing being the defense. That is a political calculation instead of a legal or practical necessity. Indeed, the prosecutor has already signaled his office will do that which is _unheard of_: release audio of the proceedings if the man is not indicted. One presumes this is so that people will understand that it is the grand jury members people should blame, and not him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/52 "2014-10-11T16:25:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But there can be no doubt that we have, somehow, created a society where young black men are seen as a threat. How we undo that, I just don’t know. I’m not sure if there’s anything the government can do to change how people see other people. But there is something the government can do to curb these killings – actually investigate them, and prosecute them harshly when the cops didn’t have a good reason to shoot. Right now, I think DAs are often cozy with cops and reluctant to prosecute except when they’re forced to by pressure. Perhaps Federal prosecutions, for Civil Rights violations, are warranted in some of these cases, when the local DA isn’t interested. Maybe there are other options as well. But I don’t believe that young black males present _21 times the threat_ to police officers that young white males do. This isn’t “young black males” compared to the rest of society – it’s young black males compared to young white males. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/53 "2014-10-11T16:50:56Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > My observation was just a flipped approach to saying “so far, the evidence reflects that the police officer behaved, at best, in a criminally negligent fashion.” But the flipping is important, because it reflects a flipping of a fundamental idea about how justice should work. If there is evidence that he broke the law, that’s one thing, and the prosecutor and the grand jury and (if it comes to that) the trial jury is supposed to take all of that evidence into account. But saying that “there’s no evidence that he didn’t break the law” is something else entirely. It’s not how we discuss culpability in a society that presumes innocence. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/54 "2014-10-11T16:56:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But there is something the government can do to curb these killings – actually investigate them, and prosecute them harshly when the cops didn’t have a good reason to shoot. I think what gets me about all of this is not that some of these incidents happen, but that there seems, in so many cases, to be insufficient concern among those in authority about taking concrete steps to punish police misconduct or to change police culture in order to reduce incidents like this. If police knew that excessive force and other types of misconduct were considered unacceptable, not just by tree-hugging liberals and government-hating libertarians, but by their own colleagues and bosses and district attorneys, and that it would be punished with termination and/or criminal prosecution, they might be less likely to engage in such behavior. And this is one area where the argument about most cops being good cops falls down a bit, in my opinion. I think that most cops probably are decent people who want to do their job properly, but the problem is that even the good cops—whether regular patrol cops or high-ranking officers—often seem unwilling to push for strong, independent investigations, and often seem more interested in holding the blue wall together than in actually seeing justice done. Those cops shouldn’t complain when the public begins to see them as just another part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/55 "2014-10-11T17:04:31Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > [Christopher Beatty, AKA Xstrav, Arrested For Trespassing While Drinking Arizona Ice Tea (VIDEO) | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/christopher-beatty-arrest-iced-tea_n_3232925.html) I clicked, and saw an obvious and egregious abuse by cop. Thirteen months later, the innocent black (a 5-year miltary veteran) was offered a plea: year’s probation with drug testing (to see if he’s still abusing iced tea?), and some community service. Beatty was inclined to reject the offer at his June 2014 court date; Google showed me no update. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. > [@enomaj](#): > > [Mall Cop Reportedly Pepper-Sprays Black Man, Ignores Racist Heckler At Pro-Palestine Protest | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/mall-cop-pepper-sprays-black-man-_n_5679297.html) I have Internet problems, and the webpage stalled after showing me the headline. Just as well: These stories make me very angry. Oh, why aren’t all Americans disgusted with such police abuse, which seems to be growing worse and worse? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/56 "2014-10-11T17:25:31Z")
I don’t now if police abuse is growing worse–or more Americans are hearing about it. Most mornings, going to work, my bus driver & one of his passengers dissect the news story of the day. (They are both articulate African-American gentlemen of middle years.) Sometimes they discuss something truly tragic–the Houston Texans… The other day, the driver was explaining how he told his daughter to always do the driving when she borrowed his car. (A pretty nice one, I believe.) He explained that, if her boyfriend drove, the police would pull them right over. She let him drive once–and he was pulled over. Nothing bad happened, but she learned how the world still works. To these guys, that’s just the way things are… ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/57 "2014-10-11T17:33:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Oh, why aren’t all Americans disgusted with such police abuse, which seems to be growing worse and worse? That’s the thing, though: i don’t think it is getting worse. It might seem to be, because we see so many of these instances on the news and on the web. But that is largely a function of the fact that we now have so many people with video-capable devices, and because stories like this propagate much more widely in a world of online media. There is little doubt, though, that shit like this has been happening pretty much forever. In fact, hard as this might be to believe, it might actually be better now than it used to be, simply because at least some bad cops might think twice about some abuses of their authority in cases where they might be caught on camera. ---
**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/58 "2014-10-11T17:36:35Z")
Neighborhood, social class, and race. Interchange any of these and I do not believe the situation plays out the same way. [“Ma’am, would you like a card?”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0g4uy1hnUQQ/) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/59 "2014-10-11T17:41:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Oh, why aren’t all Americans disgusted with such police abuse, which seems to be growing worse and worse? Because it’s black people involved. And not articulate, nice-looking black people like Denzel, but those thugs who be talkin like dis. People empathize with others who look and sound like they do. The more a group diverges from what’s considered “mainstream”, the less of an outrage there will be when that group is dicked over, and the more that group will be blamed for what happens to them. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/60 "2014-10-11T17:44:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > This is the law-enforcement omnibus thread. Discuss controversial shootings, tasings, pepper-sprayings, arrests, and other police encounter here. Just a thank you to the OP for doing this. Fucking shame that it’s necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=4)