# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/621 "2014-12-25T17:37:15Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > When did I ever mention any of that? :😕: I didn’t mean to imply that you did. However, some folks around don’t distinguish between protesters and rioters, so I wanted to make the distinction clear. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/622 "2014-12-25T17:37:25Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/623 "2014-12-26T05:35:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I doubt if I’ve ever expressed an opinion in GD that no one would call a lie. Such an opinion would have to be innocuous and devoid of consequence. “I like chocolate ice cream” is an opinion. “Probable cause doesn’t exist anymore” is not. It’s a totally dishonest statement. That’s not what the Supreme Court ruled. Snobo knows it, and made a dishonest statement about it anyway. Which makes it a lie, and certainly not a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/624 "2014-12-27T01:10:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A center lefty news blog I respect, _Talking Points Memo_, has a news story up about the mayor’s press conference. Consensus seems to be building that the shooting was justified, if tragic. \* TPM \*has played pretty square over the years, so I will lean that way as well, barring strong and certain contradictory evidence. Well, I’m reading claims that there are witnesses who say the victim was unarmed, and that the video shows a silver object coming out of his pocket (a cell phone), unlike the black gun claimed to be the weapon. But I can’t confirm primary sources. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/625 "2014-12-27T04:04:40Z")
It’s small potatoes compared to some of the stuff in this thread – no one got killed – but a cop in suburban St. Louis has been charged with a dozen counts of burglary. Officer Brian Barker of the Edwardsville, Illinois Police Department is accused of burglarizing several businesses and one home. Prosecutors say that Barker committed some of the burglaries while on duty and in uniform. Barker was also charged with having possession of six stolen guns. [http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/edwardsville-police-officer-accused-of-being-serial-burglar/article\_61dbd039-b317-5360-8104-69c7c2ee831f.html?mobile\_touch=true](http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/edwardsville-police-officer-accused-of-being-serial-burglar/article_61dbd039-b317-5360-8104-69c7c2ee831f.html?mobile_touch=true) The Edwardsville PD has had some, uh, issues. A former chief went to prison in 2013 for embezzling from the city, and another officer was accused in 2012 of secretly videotaping women at a tanning salon. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/626 "2014-12-27T04:32:21Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > It’s small potatoes compared to some of the stuff in this thread – no one got killed – but a cop in suburban St. Louis has been charged with a dozen counts of burglary. Officer Brian Barker of the Edwardsville, Illinois Police Department is accused of burglarizing several businesses and one home. Prosecutors say that Barker committed some of the burglaries while on duty and in uniform. Barker was also charged with having possession of six stolen guns. > > [http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/edwardsville-police-officer-accused-of-being-serial-burglar/article\_61dbd039-b317-5360-8104-69c7c2ee831f.html?mobile\_touch=true](http://m.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/edwardsville-police-officer-accused-of-being-serial-burglar/article_61dbd039-b317-5360-8104-69c7c2ee831f.html?mobile_touch=true) > > The Edwardsville PD has had some, uh, issues. A former chief went to prison in 2013 for embezzling from the city, and another officer was accused in 2012 of secretly videotaping women at a tanning salon. I would happily let my home get burglarized weekly if it meant cops stopped shooting so many people in this country. Please, burgle my house, if shooting someone is the alternative. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/627 "2014-12-27T05:15:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll be surprised if this turns out to be different from the way the mainstream media is reporting it now (the mayor’s press conference was all over the news last night), but anyone who is certain he sees a gun in the grainy video is kidding himself. Agreed, it looks like he has something in his hand, but if someone were to show me that video by itself and I had knew nothing else about the case other than the video, there’s no way I’d say, “yeah that’s clearly a gun.” That said, it’s really hard to see what else it could be. Do people really think the kid was so stupid he’d decide to point his cellphone at an armed cop in a tense situation in an area where cops have a reputation for overreacting to perceived threats? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/628 "2014-12-28T23:58:53Z")
[Here’s a story and video about a guy who did NOT follow the usual recommendation](http://www.mediaite.com/online/do-you-know-who-the-fck-i-am-fl-cop-pulls-over-the-wrong-guy/) – he reacted violently to a routine traffic stop and resisted arrest. Congrats to the cops whoavoided murdering him. Sorry if “encounters between law-enforcement and civilians” is the wrong thread: _ **though in plain-clothes the resistor was himself a cop.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/629 "2014-12-29T00:52:07Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Congrats to the cops whoavoided murdering him. The perp was white. I’m sure it was just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/630 "2014-12-30T20:48:21Z")
> **[Berkeley officials: Martin pointed gun at officer](https://fox2now.com/news/update-berkeley-mayor-to-hold-news-conference-on-officer-involved-shooting/)** > > BERKELEY, MO (KTVI)- Berkeley Mayor Theodore Hoskins along with Police Chief Frank McCall held a news conference Tuesday morning to give an update on the internal investigation regarding the shooti… An independent investigation performed by St. Louis County Police confirmed that Martin pulled a gun on the officer who was responding to the call for shoplifting. During the conference, Police Chief Frank McCall said the individual who was with Martin at the time confirmed the same. He told police that he fled for fear of his life because he didn’t know if he would be shot. Police say several witnesses also said Martin was armed and did attempt to fire his weapon at the officer. The protesters are idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/631 "2014-12-30T21:05:22Z")
Clearly the Berkely Mayor, Police Chief and every other person in that video are racists and the Mayor and Chief ordered the police to actively hunt down young black men for funsies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/632 "2014-12-30T23:52:02Z")
For some reason, some NYPD officers [threw a man to the ground](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/alexander-bok-dancing-thrown-police) after he danced behind them. The video is a bit jumpy, and not all of the altercation is clear. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/633 "2014-12-31T01:24:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://fox2now.com/2014/12/30/update-berkeley-mayor-to-hold-news-conference-on-officer-involved-shooting/](http://fox2now.com/2014/12/30/update-berkeley-mayor-to-hold-news-conference-on-officer-involved-shooting/) > > An independent investigation performed by St. Louis County Police confirmed that Martin pulled a gun on the officer who was responding to the call for shoplifting. > > During the conference, Police Chief Frank McCall said the individual who was with Martin at the time confirmed the same. He told police that he fled for fear of his life because he didn’t know if he would be shot. > > Police say several witnesses also said Martin was armed and did attempt to fire his weapon at the officer. > > The protesters are idiots. IMHO the protesters would do their cause great service by being a little more selective about who they choose to make poster boys in calls for police reform. As someone who is very sympathetic to that cause, I can only cringe and wince at the protesters’ reaction to the latest shooting in St. Louis. I think a good rule of thumb is: if the best evidence available suggests that someone was shot after pointing a gun at the police, don’t protest that event as an example of out-of-control policing. Doing so severely weakens the credibility of your message. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/634 "2015-01-07T00:55:07Z")
[ > [@](#): > > An unarmed man killed by a Montana police officer during a traffic stop was told repeatedly to raise his hands before the officer shot him three times, according to video footage shown Tuesday during an inquest into the shooting. > > Billings Police Officer Grant Morrison shot 38-year-old Richard Ramirez in April when authorities said Ramirez — a suspect in a recent drug-involved shooting — appeared to reach for something during the traffic stop. > > In the previously unreleased video from a patrol car dash-cam, Morrison could be heard yelling “Hands up!” at least six times before firing three shots into the vehicle in rapid succession. > > The actions of Ramirez could not be seen in the footage. ]([http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5a5e7a397c244bbeaf372c354947a3c9/killing-montana-man-police-eyed-coroners-inquest](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5a5e7a397c244bbeaf372c354947a3c9/killing-montana-man-police-eyed-coroners-inquest)) So basically, in America, the land of freedom, anything you do that is not actively cooperating with the police is grounds to kill you. That’s lovely. Home of the free AND the brave? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/635 "2015-01-07T10:31:30Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [url=[http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5a5e7a397c244bbeaf372c354947a3c9/killing-montana-man-police-eyed-coroners-inquest](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5a5e7a397c244bbeaf372c354947a3c9/killing-montana-man-police-eyed-coroners-inquest)] > So basically, in America, the land of freedom, anything you do that is not actively cooperating with the police is grounds to kill you. That’s lovely. Home of the free AND the brave? :dubious: Not anything, no. Reaching for something the officer can’t see, then refusing to show your hands, yes. Imminent threat and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/636 "2015-01-07T10:35:08Z")
Serious question: what does “independent investigation performed by… the [p]olice” mean? I mean, I would think from the phrasing that “independent investigations” would be performed by disinterested third parties. Is there a specific meaning here I don’t know? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/637 "2015-01-07T12:27:40Z")
[Interesting article](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/01/the-nypd-officers-who-see-racial-bias-in-the-nypd/384106/) about the views of minority NYPD officers. One tidbit: most of them have experienced racial profiling and other bad behavior at the hands of police (while off-duty), and most who reported these bad experiences either had these complaints dismissed or were actually retaliated against by their supervisors. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/638 "2015-01-07T13:58:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not anything, no. Reaching for something the officer can’t see, then refusing to show your hands, yes. Imminent threat and all that. You have a funny definition of “imminent.” Sounds more like a hypothetical threat at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/639 "2015-01-07T14:34:05Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You have a funny definition of “imminent.” Sounds more like a hypothetical threat at that point. Agreed. While I don’t think that police should wait until they are fired upon before they can use deadly force, the current standards yield too many false positives. The standard has to be something greater than just the potential that someone might have the means to harm the officer. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/640 "2015-01-07T16:31:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Interesting article](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/01/the-nypd-officers-who-see-racial-bias-in-the-nypd/384106/) about the views of minority NYPD officers. One tidbit: most of them have experienced racial profiling and other bad behavior at the hands of police (while off-duty), and most who reported these bad experiences either had these complaints dismissed or were actually retaliated against by their supervisors. From the article: > [@](#): > > Reuters interviewed 25 African American male officers on the NYPD, 15 of whom are retired and 10 of whom are still serving," …All but one said that, when off duty and out of uniform, they had been victims of racial profiling…Officers said this included being pulled over for no reason, having their heads slammed against their cars, getting guns brandished in their faces, being thrown into prison vans and experiencing stop and frisks while shopping." These weren’t one-off events. “The majority of the officers said they had been pulled over multiple times while driving. Five had had guns pulled on them.” I remember talking with a former coworker of mine. We lived relatively close to each other and worked at the same building, so we basically drove the same route to work at around the same time. We drove price-equivalent cars which were the same color, and wore similar work clothes (we both shopped at Brooks Brothers so there was probably a 80-90% overlap in our wardrobe). We were similar ages, and we had identical driving records (neither of us had ever had a ticket). We had similar education backgrounds, similar income, etc. etc. etc… In the 4 years we worked together, I never got pulled over for any reason. He got pulled over a couple dozen times. Based on that, can you guess our races? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=33)