# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 324
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6461 "2015-10-11T03:57:58Z")
Using logic and reason sure to thrill the nation, [the shooting of a 12 year old boy who had a pellet gun is reported to be “A-OK, nothing to see here, everything is fine”: > [@](#): > > A retired FBI agent and a Denver prosecutor both found the rookie patrolman who shot Tamir Rice exercised a reasonable use of force because he had reason to perceive the boy - described in a 911 call as man waving and pointing a gun - as a serious threat. > [@](#): > > Subodh Chandra, a lawyer for the Rice family, said the release of the reports shows the prosecutor is avoiding accountability, which is what the family seeks. > > “It is now obvious that the prosecutor’s office has been on a 12-month quest to avoid providing that accountability,” he said. He added that the prosecutor’s office didn’t provide his office or the Rice family with the details from the reports. He also questioned the timing of the release, at 8 p.m. Saturday on the Columbus Day holiday weekend. > > “To get so-called experts to assist in the whitewash - when the world has the video of what happened - is all the more alarming,” Chandra said. “Who will speak for Tamir before the grand jury? Not the prosecutor, apparently.” ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_CLEVELAND\_POLICE\_SHOOT\_BOY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-10-23-28-56](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CLEVELAND_POLICE_SHOOT_BOY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-10-23-28-56)) Seriously, the logic used in the retired-FBI report is almost unbelievable:[ > [@](#): > > The report prepared by retired FBI agent Kimberly A. Crawford concluded that Loehmann’s use of force did not violate Tamir’s constitutional rights, saying the only facts relevant to such a determination are those the patrolman had at the time he fired his weapon. > > Loehmann, she wrote, “had no information to suggest the weapon was anything but a real handgun, and the speed with which the confrontation progressed would not give the officer time to focus on the weapon.” > > “It is my conclusion that Officer Loehmann’s use of deadly force falls within the realm of reasonableness under the dictates of the Fourth Amendment,” Crawford wrote ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_CLEVELAND\_POLICE\_SHOOT\_BOY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-10-23-28-56](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CLEVELAND_POLICE_SHOOT_BOY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-10-23-28-56)) The prosecutor is even worse:[ > [@](#): > > Sims said the officers had no idea if the pellet gun was a real gun when they arrived, and that **Loehmann was in a position of great peril because he was within feet of Tamir as the boy approached the cruiser and reached toward his waistband**. > > “The officers did not create the violent situation,” Sims wrote in his review. “They were responding to a situation fraught with the potential for violence to citizens.” ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_CLEVELAND\_POLICE\_SHOOT\_BOY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-10-23-28-56](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CLEVELAND_POLICE_SHOOT_BOY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-10-23-28-56))(helpful bolding mine) IMO: Whitewash whitewash whitewash whitewash. Whitewash. Whitewash whitewash whitewash. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6462 "2015-10-11T13:57:45Z")
They do know that everyone can see the video, right? The boy "approached the cruiser? What a lying clunt. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6463 "2015-10-11T14:42:22Z")
Just wait a couple more releases and Tamir will have fired first. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6464 "2015-10-11T16:30:32Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > They do know that everyone can see the video, right? The boy "approached the cruiser? What a lying clunt. _You_ can [see the video](https://youtu.be/x1GaaMYhrw0?t=1m1s), right? Rice was moving towards the cruiser when he was shot. But hey, why let facts stand in the way of your illogical bloodlust? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6465 "2015-10-11T16:34:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cowardly cop, afraid of dog If a large dog which is strange to me charges at me in a place with which I am unfamiliar, and I’m armed, I’m not waiting until after it tears open my femoral artery to defend myself. Anyone who thinks that’s “cowardly” either has no fear of death or is not familiar with the damage a large dog can do. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6466 "2015-10-11T16:44:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > _You_ can [see the video](https://youtu.be/x1GaaMYhrw0?t=1m1s), right? Rice was moving towards the cruiser when he was shot. > > But hey, why let facts stand in the way of your illogical bloodlust? It seems in some of these cases, it’s the cops who have some bloodlust. For example: [Cop’s comments before killing homeless man ‘unacceptable,’ Albuquerque chief says](http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_26641596/cops-comments-before-killing-homeless-man-unacceptable-albuquerque) > [@](#): > > ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) – An Albuquerque police officer’s comments before a March fatal shooting that sparked a protest and FBI investigation were “completely unacceptable,” said the city’s police chief. > > In an interview with The Associated Press, Chief Gorden Eden said officer Keith Sandy violated department policy when he used profanity to describe James Boyd before Sandy and another officer killed the 38-year-old mentally ill homeless man. > > Sandy’s comments were captured by a New Mexico State Police dashboard camera March 16, **around two hours before the shooting** at Boyd’s Sandia foothills campsite. Police released the recording Monday. > > “The recording that everyone has heard is completely unacceptable,” Eden told the AP. “We have policies that strictly prohibit that type of actions, those types of behavior.” > > In the recording, Sandy is heard using foul language and **telling a State Police sergeant that Boyd was a “lunatic” whom he planned to shoot**. The sergeant later said Sandy was referring to using a stun gun. [my bold] So, whether referring to a stun gun or not (which could be the Blue Wall backing up a fellow officer), this cop got recorded saying he was going to shoot this guy two hours prior to doing it. Now who’s being naive, Kay? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6467 "2015-10-11T16:47:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > _You_ can [see the video](https://youtu.be/x1GaaMYhrw0?t=1m1s), right? Rice was moving towards the cruiser when he was shot. > > But hey, why let facts stand in the way of your illogical bloodlust? He turned towards the police, and then his body fell in their direction. If he had moved in the other direction, you would claim he was running away-a sure sign of guilt! You are one fucked up bastard, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6468 "2015-10-11T16:53:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He turned towards the police, and then his body fell in their direction. Cute. He can clearly be seen taking several steps in the direction of the car before and as it enters the frame, stopping only when he is shot. > [@dasmoocher](#): > > So, whether referring to a stun gun or not (which could be the Blue Wall backing up a fellow officer), this cop got recorded saying he was going to shoot this guy two hours prior to doing it. I do not consider that appropriate. I also do not consider it to be in any way relevant to the people who are demanding the blood of innocent police defending themselves against a person armed with what they had every reason to believe was a lethal weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6469 "2015-10-11T16:59:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cute. He can clearly be seen taking several steps in the direction of the car before and as it enters the frame, stopping only when he is shot… So fucking what? He was a child, and a police car was rushing up to him-what kind of reaction did you expect him to take? He didn’t know that his life was in danger from a trigger-happy yahoo looking for an excuse to blow him away. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6470 "2015-10-11T17:07:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He was a child, and a police car was rushing up to him-what kind of reaction did you expect him to take? “Not walk towards the cops while reaching for the fake gun in his waistband” would have been a good choice. > [@](#): > > a trigger-happy yahoo looking for an excuse to blow him away. I’m sorry, I believe you misspelled “public servant who has been informed that a male has been seen brandishing a firearm in a public park and who now observes that male approaching him while reaching for said firearm”. It must be terrifying to live in your world where all cops are bloodthirsty monsters who get out of bed in the morning and say to themselves “I hope I get a chance to murder some children today!”. I’m sure glad I don’t live there. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6471 "2015-10-11T17:56:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > large dog … “cowardly” … large dog … Did you even click the video? True, it’s not a Chihuahua but if you consider it a “large dog” then _you are cowardly_. But that’s almost beside the point because: (a) In residential areas owners are responsible for training and controlling their dogs. To assume the dog would attack viciously is to assume its owners are criminals. Answer this hypothetical please. You’re a door-to-door salesman (rather than a uniformed officer responding to a medical emergency) and, after owner responds to your door knock, a dog approaches threateningly. Do you have the right to shoot the dog? (b) Should anyone so unskilled as to hit an innocent bystander be allowed to fire a gun at all? But thanks for sharing; it gives insight into your “thinking”: Cop: “She was walking down the street minding her own business, but I noticed her purse was large enough to hold a hand-grenade. Naturally I had to assume the worst, so I emptied my magazine into her.” Judge Smapti: “Case dismissed.” ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ In another thread I argue for the protection of voter rights, but I sure hope you don’t get voter ID when you turn 18. (How old are you now, about 12?) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6472 "2015-10-11T18:05:16Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > [Cop’s comments before killing homeless man ‘unacceptable,’ Albuquerque chief says](http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_26641596/cops-comments-before-killing-homeless-man-unacceptable-albuquerque) He actually said “_completely_ unacceptable.” The murderer is now on “paid administrative leave pending federal probe.” I know English evolves, but how could “completely unacceptable” behavior not result in dismissal? Are cops fired only for “exponentially completely unacceptable” behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6473 "2015-10-11T18:10:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I know English evolves, but how could “completely unacceptable” behavior not result in dismissal? Unions. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6474 "2015-10-11T18:17:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Did you even click the video? True, it’s not a Chihuahua but if you consider it a “large dog” then _you are cowardly_. > > Answer this hypothetical please. You’re a door-to-door salesman (rather than a uniformed officer responding to a medical emergency) and, after owner responds to your door knock, a dog approaches threateningly. Do you have the right to shoot the dog? I don’t know how many door-to-door salesmen are still out there, but the USPS, UPS, FedEx, and others manage to make daily deliveries without shooting dogs, which I’m sure may all not be on a leash or confined–especially in more rural areas. Why, they may even get training for dealing with dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6475 "2015-10-11T18:32:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > True, it’s not a Chihuahua but if you consider it a “large dog” then you are cowardly. The dog in question was an adult boxer-terrier mix, an animal which can weigh up to 50 lbs. That’s large enough to pose a threat. If you disagree, I challenge you to goad one into attacking you on camera and post the results on YouTube. > [@](#): > > Answer this hypothetical please. You’re a door-to-door salesman (rather than a uniformed officer responding to a medical emergency) and, after owner responds to your door knock, a dog approaches threateningly. Do you have the right to shoot the dog? Yes. I have just as much right to defend myself from a dangerous animal as an LEO does in the same scenario. (Incidentally, one of you might want to tell the people in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=457653) that they’re all a bunch of cowards.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6476 "2015-10-12T05:01:26Z")
[This shooting happened in 2012](http://www.vice.com/read/the-unarmed-black-man-who-survived-a-police-shooting-to-become-an-activist-1012), but the story is still relevant (although hopefully not too controversial, except maybe to **Smapti** ):[ > [@](#): > > On November 11, 2012, Leon Ford, Jr. was pulled over on a Pittsburgh street for what police described as a minor traffic violation. There were no problems with his paperwork or warrants for his arrest, but less than 20 minutes later, Ford found himself dazed in his wrecked silver Infiniti while city police scrambled to handcuff him. > He didn’t realize it at first, but he had just been shot. > [@](#): > > Just a few minutes after Ford was pulled over, he started to get the feeling there was something strange about that 2012 traffic stop. Officers Michael Kosko and Andrew Miller later reported he was driving quickly and didn’t stop completely at multiple stop signs. And even though Ford’s paperwork appeared to be in order, “They were barking at me, saying I was Lamont Ford,” he recalls, referring to a man for whom police said they had an outstanding warrant. That’s around the time officers called a third cop, David Derbish, to the scene to help identify him. > > A video of the incident shows the traffic stop dragged on until the officers started trying to get Ford out of the car. As the officers struggled, Derbish, who was standing at the passenger side, jumped into the car with Ford. Derbish said that he saw a bulge in Ford’s pants that he thought was a gun and saw Ford reach for the gearshift, potentially endangering the other two officers. Seconds later, the car lurched forward. Trapped inside, Derbish would testify that Ford hit him and tried to push him out of the car. Fearing for his life, and in an effort “to stop the threat,” he drew his gun and pulled the trigger five times. ]([http://www.vice.com/read/the-unarmed-black-man-who-survived-a-police-shooting-to-become-an-activist-1012](http://www.vice.com/read/the-unarmed-black-man-who-survived-a-police-shooting-to-become-an-activist-1012)) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6477 "2015-10-12T09:42:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The dog in question was an adult boxer-terrier mix, an animal which can weigh up to 50 lbs. That’s large enough to pose a threat. If you disagree, I challenge you to goad one into attacking you on camera and post the results on YouTube. > > Yes. I have just as much right to defend myself from a dangerous animal as an LEO does in the same scenario. > > (Incidentally, one of you might want to tell the people in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=457653) that they’re all a bunch of cowards.) In that thread, the animal is actually attacking them with intent to kill. That’s rather different to this scenario, in which the officer claims that that dog charged him, but that is just his claim. And pepper spray certainly could have worked just as well - wouldn’t you, Smapti, use pepper spray first, with a dog? It’s hardly going to reach into its pockets for a gun, is it? And I can just imagine a load of posties going round shooting dogs on their route. 😃 That they don’t says something of a policeman who did, especially when invited onto a property rather than searching for bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6478 "2015-10-12T11:06:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The dog in question was an adult boxer-terrier mix, an animal which can weigh up to 50 lbs. That’s large enough to pose a threat. If you disagree, I challenge you to goad one into attacking you on camera and post the results on YouTube. If I do this, will you supply the little girl for me to shoot? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6479 "2015-10-12T11:13:21Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > That’s rather different to this scenario, in which the officer claims that that dog charged him, but that is just his claim. And pepper spray certainly could have worked just as well - wouldn’t you, Smapti, use pepper spray first, with a dog? It’s hardly going to reach into its pockets for a gun, is it? Dogs pack deadly weapons ! You have literally ZERO SECONDS from the time they see you before they slice up your femoral artery ! You know, as dogs routinely do… ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6480 "2015-10-12T16:02:31Z")
I’m conflicted. How should I be teaching my children to act around police officers? Should I be teaching them that police officers are people they can trust so if they’re in a situation where something has happened to mom and dad the police will take care of them? Or should I be teaching them that if a police car drives up to them they should turn and run away, or put their hands up? My son is a pretty curious and friendly kid. I imagine if a fancy police car pulled into the park he was playing in he would walk over to say hi. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=323) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=325)