# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 329
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6561 "2015-10-19T19:39:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No comments on the Ajibade case? Did I miss a discussion on it already? Seems kind of run-of-the-mill these days. Sadly. There is [video of his booking](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6nCSn0dm7E), in which there is a scuffle. Just the violence in a this video alone is disturbing, with one or two officers stomping on the man’s head as he is curled up on the floor. The more troubling aspect to the video is that Ajibade seems compliant and calm until the police start manhandling him. It looks for all the world like they are _escalating the situation_, which seems to be SOP: provoke the [del]victim[/del] suspect and they can get away with all kinds of shit by claiming that he was violent. It is like the classic old-west gunfighter’s ethos of justifying shooting because the other guy made the first move. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6562 "2015-10-20T21:12:52Z")
[Guy’s car breaks down on the side of the road at 3AM. While waiting for help to arrive, a plainclothes officer in an unmarked car pulls up behind him. Plainclothes officer shoots and kills him, saying that the guy confronted him with a weapon. They don’t say what weapon. All we know is the guy was a drummer in a church band.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-investigating-deadly-officer-shooting-of-florida-church-drummer/) I dunno about you, but if I’m stranded, all alone, in the middle of the night and a guy in an unmarked car rolls up on me, I’m probably gonna flex a little muscle–just to let the rando know I’m not to be messed with. But apparently, we aren’t supposed to do this with police officers operating covertly. We’re supposed to intuit that such people are harmless folk who have more to fear from us than we of them. Doesn’t matter that Florida, where this took place, is a Stand Your Ground state. You’re only allowed to be defensive with hoodie-wearing teenaged black youth walking around in their own neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6563 "2015-10-20T23:42:59Z")
Being black is threatening. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6564 "2015-10-20T23:53:40Z")
If only black people would learn not to dehumanize so much with their stares. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6565 "2015-10-21T00:21:34Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Guy’s car breaks down on the side of the road at 3AM. While waiting for help to arrive, a plainclothes officer in an unmarked car pulls up behind him. Plainclothes officer shoots and kills him, saying that the guy confronted him with a weapon. They don’t say what weapon. All we know is the guy was a drummer in a church band.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-investigating-deadly-officer-shooting-of-florida-church-drummer/) > > I dunno about you, but if I’m stranded, all alone, in the middle of the night and a guy in an unmarked car rolls up on me, I’m probably gonna flex a little muscle–just to let the rando know I’m not to be messed with. But apparently, we aren’t supposed to do this with police officers operating covertly. We’re supposed to intuit that such people are harmless folk who have more to fear from us than we of them. Doesn’t matter that Florida, where this took place, is a Stand Your Ground state. You’re only allowed to be defensive with hoodie-wearing teenaged black youth walking around in their own neighborhoods. [Considering that the murder of Ennis Cosby happened under similar circumstances, I don’t see anything wrong with a stranded motorist wanting some protection when being approached by a stranger.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ennis_Cosby) Unless if you’re black, of course. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6566 "2015-10-21T01:01:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Guy’s car breaks down on the side of the road at 3AM. While waiting for help to arrive, a plainclothes officer in an unmarked car pulls up behind him. Plainclothes officer shoots and kills him, saying that the guy confronted him with a weapon. They don’t say what weapon. All we know is the guy was a drummer in a church band.](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-investigating-deadly-officer-shooting-of-florida-church-drummer/) > > I dunno about you, but if I’m stranded, all alone, in the middle of the night and a guy in an unmarked car rolls up on me, I’m probably gonna flex a little muscle–just to let the rando know I’m not to be messed with. But apparently, we aren’t supposed to do this with police officers operating covertly. We’re supposed to intuit that such people are harmless folk who have more to fear from us than we of them. Doesn’t matter that Florida, where this took place, is a Stand Your Ground state. You’re only allowed to be defensive with hoodie-wearing teenaged black youth walking around in their own neighborhoods. Let me save **Smaptiphan** a click. How dare you insinuate that any police officer is anything but a heroic and fair-principled defender of the public’s freedom? The thug probably got just what was coming to him for being stupid and disrespectful. No one should fault the hero for shooting to kill if he had any fear, or sensed the slightest whiff of a threat. And although I am certainly not a racist – NO I’M NOT A RACIST – the skin color and hair texture of the thug correlate strongly with stupidity, criminality and disrespect. And I’m no hypocrite. I’d say exactly the same if it was the white LEO’s car which had broken down, and the black thug stopped to help. Permute the skin colors also if you wish… Wait a minute! Who would hire a stupid disrespectful black thug to be a cop? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6567 "2015-10-21T10:23:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Let me save **Smaptiphan** a click. Let me go over all the ways you’re completely misrepresenting me. > [@](#): > > How dare you insinuate that any police officer is anything but a heroic and fair-principled defender of the public’s freedom? This isn’t a law enforcement issue. If he’d been a civilian he would have exactly as much right to defend himself from a perceived threat. Both parties had that right in this case. I note that neither you or the person you’re responding to deny that the victim had the right to defend himself. > [@](#): > > The thug probably got just what was coming to him for being stupid and disrespectful. There is no “thug” in this story. Nor a “hero”. Not every justifiable shooting has a Good Guy and a Bad Guy in it like in the Hollywood movies you’ve learned about law enforcement from. > [@](#): > > No one should fault the hero for shooting to kill if he had any fear, or sensed the slightest whiff of a threat. No one should fault _anyone_ who chooses to defend themselves from a perceived threat. > [@](#): > > And although I am certainly not a racist – NO I’M NOT A RACIST – the skin color and hair texture of the thug correlate strongly with stupidity, criminality and disrespect. Bullshit. > [@](#): > > And I’m no hypocrite. I’d say exactly the same if it was the white LEO’s car which had broken down, and the black thug stopped to help. Permute the skin colors also if you wish… Wait a minute! Who would hire a stupid disrespectful black thug to be a cop? The only one here asserting that black people can’t be cops is you. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6568 "2015-10-21T10:26:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But apparently, we aren’t supposed to do this with police officers operating covertly. We’re supposed to intuit that such people are harmless folk who have more to fear from us than we of them. Doesn’t matter that Florida, where this took place, is a Stand Your Ground state. You’re only allowed to be defensive with hoodie-wearing teenaged black youth walking around in their own neighborhoods. We _are,_ however, apparently supposed to intuit that the armed man who jumps out of a parked car at you at 3 AM is a completely harmless guy just waiting for roadside assistance. Suppose this story had ended with the civilian shooting the unarmed cop. Would you deny that he had a right to defend himself? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6569 "2015-10-21T12:45:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Suppose this story had ended with the civilian shooting the unarmed cop. Would you deny that he had a right to defend himself? _Civilian?_ WTF? The dead guy is a dead guy. Seriously, _civilian_? Is that what any not-a-cop is? Civilian; synonym: **noncombatant**. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6570 "2015-10-21T13:16:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We _are,_ however, apparently supposed to intuit that the armed man who jumps out of a parked car at you at 3 AM is a completely harmless guy just waiting for roadside assistance. By that logic, the “civilian” had every right to kill the guy that jumped out of the unmarked car that pulled him over, because everyone is a lethal threat until proven otherwise, and everyone has the right to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6571 "2015-10-21T13:31:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > By that logic, the “civilian” had every right to kill the guy that jumped out of the unmarked car that pulled him over, because everyone is a lethal threat until proven otherwise, and everyone has the right to defend themselves. Lots of reasonable killing in the world. Whatcha gonna do? The only other option is that we let ourselves be killed all the time. Does that sound about right? We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6572 "2015-10-21T15:33:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > By that logic, the “civilian” had every right to kill the guy that jumped out of the unmarked car that pulled him over, because everyone is a lethal threat until proven otherwise, and everyone has the right to defend themselves. Well, _yes_, he did at that moment in time. He had no way of knowing the plainclothes man in an unmarked vehicle was a cop. He had the right to defend himself. Are you saying that if a random person pulls up next to you and approaches your broken-down car at 3 AM, you have no right to defend yourself? > [@kayaker](#): > > _Civilian?_ Take it up with the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6573 "2015-10-21T15:50:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, _yes_, he did at that moment in time. He had no way of knowing the plainclothes man in an unmarked vehicle was a cop. He had the right to defend himself. Are you saying that if a random person pulls up next to you and approaches your broken-down car at 3 AM, you have no right to defend yourself I don’t know. Do you think in such a circumstance it would have been appropriate to arm yourself just in case? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6574 "2015-10-21T15:58:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Are you saying that if a random person pulls up next to you and approaches your broken-down car at 3 AM, you have no right to defend yourself? That this is even an issue illustrates just how crazy the USA is. Where I’m from, you stop to help people, and when you are broken down, people stop to help you. Shoot-first, ask questions later, is not how we think. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6575 "2015-10-21T16:11:10Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I don’t know. Do you think in such a circumstance it would have been appropriate to arm yourself just in case? Yes. There’s nothing in this article to indicate that _either_ party was in the wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6576 "2015-10-21T16:12:01Z")
That’s just Smapti and his particular brand of “kill everyone who makes you feel any sense of unease”. There’s nothing particularly sane or Human about him. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6577 "2015-10-21T16:16:07Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > That’s just Smapti and his particular brand of “kill everyone who makes you feel any sense of unease”. As usual, it’s a lot easier to debunk an argument you’ve created yourself than to debunk the one actually being made by the person you disagree with. Do people have the right to defend themselves if they believe they are in danger, or don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6578 "2015-10-21T16:23:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do people have the right to defend themselves if they believe they are in danger, or don’t they? Poor John Dillinger. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6579 "2015-10-21T16:39:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do people have the right to defend themselves if they believe they are in danger, or don’t they? Depends on the circumstances. Not all feelings of danger are reasonable, or reasonably would lead to the use deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/6580 "2015-10-21T17:14:51Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Poor John Dillinger. Of course he was poor, it’s not like he had a real job. Unless you consider robbing, murdering people, and stealing to be a real job. How dare those good guys with guns take down the bad guy with a gun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=328) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=330)