# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 354
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7061 "2015-11-19T14:23:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – once someone has broken the law, the police can restrain someone in any way they choose, even deadly ways. Right, **Smapti**? The police have no responsibility to restrain people in ways that don’t kill them. Hog-tying people does not generally kill them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7062 "2015-11-19T14:27:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hog-tying people does not generally kill them. So police can do anything to a law-breaker that “does not generally kill them”? If it only sometimes kills people, it’s okay all the time? Police have no responsibility to try and minimize the risk of death to people in their custody? This is totally different than your other argument, by the way – that the police aren’t responsible because he first broke the law before being hogtied and killed by police. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7063 "2015-11-19T15:01:00Z")
[The police could possibly have been more vigilant in making sure he wasn’t having breathing problems](https://www2.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/may966.txt), but that doesn’t absolve him of the fact that it was his own fault that he had to be hog-tied; [QUOTE=Dr. Donald T. Reay] At present, no satisfactory alternatives to hog-tied and prone restraint exist. Police administrators who wish to prevent deaths that occur during hog-tied restraint should not authorize use of the maneuver. Yet, experience shows that sometimes no other type of restraint will control a violent, aggressive subject. Until an alternative method of restraint is developed, officers must be aware of the risks, vigilantly monitor subjects’ conditions, and take every precaution to avert fatalities. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7064 "2015-11-19T15:32:43Z")
Well, this guy survived his encounter with police: [D.C. police framed man imprisoned 27 years for 1981 murder, U.S. jury finds](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/dc-police-framed-man-imprisoned-27-years-for-1981-murder-us-jury-finds/2015/11/18/7a454054-8e04-11e5-baf4-bdf37355da0c_story.html?hpid=hp_local-news_gates-130pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory) > [@](#): > > A federal jury on Wednesday found that D.C. police framed an innocent man for a 1981 rape and murder, making the District liable for damages after he was imprisoned for 27 years. > > Jurors found that two D.C. homicide detectives fabricated all or part of a confession purportedly made by the wrongly accused Donald E. Gates to a police informant. The detectives also withheld other evidence from Gates before he was convicted in the fatal attack on a 21-year-old Georgetown University student in Rock Creek Park, jurors found. > > Gates, now 64, was exonerated in the June 1981 killing and released from prison in 2009 after DNA testing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7065 "2015-11-19T15:43:42Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Well, this guy survived his encounter with police: > > [D.C. police framed man imprisoned 27 years for 1981 murder, U.S. jury finds](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/dc-police-framed-man-imprisoned-27-years-for-1981-murder-us-jury-finds/2015/11/18/7a454054-8e04-11e5-baf4-bdf37355da0c_story.html?hpid=hp_local-news_gates-130pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory) If he hadn’t been a convenient suspect, he wouldn’t have had to have been framed. His conviction is a direct consequence of his decision to be a convenient suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7066 "2015-11-19T16:05:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > If he hadn’t been a convenient suspect, he wouldn’t have had to have been framed. His conviction is a direct consequence of his decision to be a convenient suspect. For the record, I do not condone police framing innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7067 "2015-11-19T17:07:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > For the record, I do not condone police framing innocent people. Just shooting them? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7068 "2015-11-19T17:28:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If he hadn’t taken LSD, he wouldn’t have had to have been physically restrained. His death is a direct consequence of his decision to break the law. Even if we accept that, is his death a reasonable and justifiable consequence? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7069 "2015-11-19T17:31:26Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Even if we accept that, is his death a reasonable and justifiable consequence? Tragic and possibly avoidable, but ultimately his own fault. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7070 "2015-11-19T17:33:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > His death is a direct consequence of his decision to break the law. Death is a direct consequence of being born. Getting murdered while walking down the sidewalk is a direct consequence of walking. Smapti, you are insane. What your condition was a consequence of is of no consequence, just as drugs in the victim’s system are of no consequence to his having been needlessly needlessly and excessively tasered to the point of death. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7071 "2015-11-19T19:53:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > For the record, I do not condone police framing innocent people. Yes, these police officers knowing committed perjury, causing a man to lose his freedom and be locked in a horrible place for damn-near 30 years and _AND_…they let a killer escape justice…because no one was looking for him anymore. All so they could close a case. See, it was people very _unlike_ you who brought this terrible, horrific crime to light. They are still lying their asses off: > [@](#): > > “The Metropolitan Police Department is an outstanding police department known nationally and worldwide for its professionalism,” Harlow said. He added that his co-defendants “are the highest-quality, professional detectives that I have ever worked with, and if I were the victim of a homicide, those are the first two detectives I would want involved in my case.” Even after **SCIENCE** said ‘this _cannot_ be the guy’ and it was proven that they_falsified_ evidence, they are still saying ‘We did a good job…a _GOOD_ job…’ The point we are trying to get you to understand is that your beloved police officers are sometimes just as bad as the people they arrest. Sometimes, they are far, far worse. But they have weapons and legal authority and and they get to write the reports so that their crimes look just like good police work. Its like the case mentioned upthread, where the cop shot the man multiple times in the back as he was running away, walked over to the suspect and planted a weapon, and said the suspect grabbed his taser. The cop did this in full view of another cop. _Had it not been caught on video_, that would have been the official story. Officer shoots suspect who was trying to harm the officer, rather than cop shoots suspect as he was running away from a petty and non-violent offence and then drops a weapon on his still-warm corpse. We are long passed the point where police officers automatically get the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7072 "2015-11-19T20:32:03Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > **We are long passed the point where police officers automatically get the benefit of the doubt.** For emphasis, LONG, motherfucking past that point. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7073 "2015-11-19T21:22:14Z")
Hollywood, Florida, six years ago: a veteran officer with a history of damaging his patrol car rearended a parked car and decided to arrest that driver rather than taking the blame and getting in trouble yet again. That officer got two other veteran officers and a departmental civilian employee to back him up. Luckliy for that driver, [the officers forgot that the dash-cam was on](http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Cops-Set-Up-Woman-After-Crash.html). All four were subsequently fired. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7074 "2015-11-19T21:24:27Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > they are still saying ‘We did a good job…a _GOOD_ job…’ At least they didn’t summarily dump him in some remote cornfield. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7075 "2015-11-19T21:29:59Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > All four were subsequently fired. Oh come on, now. If you’re going to make up a story, try to make it remotely believable. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7076 "2015-11-19T22:00:39Z")
Did we do this one yet? [Floyd Dent Trial: William Melendez, Michigan Ex-Cop, Found Guilty in Traffic Stop Beating](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/floyd-dent-trial-william-melendez-michigan-ex-cop-found-guilty-n466471) > [@](#): > > An ex-cop accused of using excessive force when he beat an unarmed driver during a traffic stop in suburban Detroit was found guilty Thursday on two counts. > > William Melendez, who was fired from the Inkster Police Department in April following the Jan. 28 incident, was found guilty of misconduct in office and assault with intent to do great bodily harm. > … > Driver Floyd Dent, 58, was repeatedly punched, kicked and Tasered in an incident caught on police dashcam video. Again, it’s that damn dashcam video that’s going to prevent the police from policing. > [@](#): > > Dent’s case gained national attention as one of several involving police and excessive force in minority communities. > > His attorney during the trial argued that citizens give police “enormous power.” > > “We give them power to take our lives,” Donaldson said. “There are limits on that power.” I guess **Smapti** disagrees with that last line. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7077 "2015-11-19T22:05:58Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Oh come on, now. If you’re going to make up a story, try to make it remotely believable. Yes, from the story, who could honestly believe that cops would possibly behave like this: “Throughout the tape, the cops acknowledged what they are doing is illegal, but when you are the law, there is nothing wrong with bending it for a fellow cop, one says.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7078 "2015-11-19T22:12:47Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Oh come on, now. If you’re going to make up a story, try to make it remotely believable. I hope that’s your **Smapti** impression. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7079 "2015-11-19T22:35:56Z")
Sorry, the joke was that the part where the cops actually got fired for this was the unbelievable part. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7080 "2015-11-19T22:58:28Z")
Not only were they fired, two of them had jail time. 90 days for Pressley, don’t recall what Francisco got but he was facing 30 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=353) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=355)