# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 359
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7161 "2015-11-25T19:06:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > For one, there’s no way the company would just allow the cops to sit in the manager’s office unsupervised and play with the DVR. Every time we needed to provide video footage to the police, we’d either play it back ourselves while the officer watched, or we’d burn them a DVD of the period in question. > > Secondly, in the chain I worked for, the video wasn’t just stored onsite - it was all uploaded to a server elsewhere. Even if there had been a delete function available onsite (and I don’t recall our system even having one), there still would have been a remote copy. > > I suspect that the district manager either tampered with the video himself or is lying about its having been deleted because of something it contains that’s potentially damaging to Burger King. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7162 "2015-11-25T19:09:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I suspect that the district manager either tampered with the video himself or is lying about its having been deleted because of something it contains that’s potentially damaging to Burger King. Damaging to Burger King? What, “Murderous Cops Prefer Flame Broiled Whoppers”? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7163 "2015-11-25T19:18:33Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > Please explain the last paragraph. I know nothing about this type of surveillance. Why would/would not be accessible to a third party? From watching the First 48, what typically happens is that the detectives have an employee/manager play back the video to see what’s there. If there is anything of interest a specialist will come and retrieve the video. That means getting access to the systems hard drive and copying the files. At that point they can delete the file from the system as well. The system will also delete old files to make room for new ones once the HD is full. So if the cops didn’t copy the right time frame, it would be lost. Smapti’s idea that a BK employee would have deleted the files is ridiculous. The cops either screwed up gathering/storing the video or intentionally deleted it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7164 "2015-11-25T19:26:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Smapti’s idea that a BK employee would have deleted the files is ridiculous. The cops either screwed up gathering/storing the video or intentionally deleted it. Which wouldn’t have deleted the remote copy of the video. Nor, as I said, would the police ever have needed to “gather” the video themselves - it’s as simple as putting in a blank DVD and selecting the time frame to be recorded. > [@kayaker](#): > > Damaging to Burger King? What, “Murderous Cops Prefer Flame Broiled Whoppers”? Who knows? Maybe there was a drug deal that happened in the parking lot. Maybe a manager is seen yelling at a customer/employee. Maybe Burger King has a policy against “parking” drive-thru orders and the video shows them doing just that. It doesn’t have to be directly related to the shooting (which BK’s cameras wouldn’t have seen anyway) in order to be a threat to BK or this particular employee. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7165 "2015-11-25T19:35:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who knows? Maybe there was a drug deal that happened in the parking lot. Maybe a manager is seen yelling at a customer/employee. Maybe Burger King has a policy against “parking” drive-thru orders and the video shows them doing just that. It doesn’t have to be directly related to the shooting (which BK’s cameras wouldn’t have seen anyway) in order to be a threat to BK or this particular employee. Or, instead of the video showing something Burger King didn’t want public, maybe it showed something the police didn’t want public. It’s not like police haven’t erased video before: [Footage Of Maryland Student’s Beating Goes Missing, Re-Appears Minus Some “Editing”](http://deadspin.com/5522419/footage-of-maryland-students-beating-goes-missing-re-appears-minus-some-editing) > [@](#): > > A disc of security camera video that might show police officers assaulting a Maryland student during the post-Duke game bliss mysteriously went missing, then re-appeared hours later…with a two-minute gap in the footage. Wait! That’s not the shadiest part, yet! > > After a homemade video surfaced that showed U-of-M student Jack McKenna being brutally beaten by riot cops while celebrating the Terrapin win over Duke this season, investigators decided to subpoena surveillance footage of all the campus security cameras in the area. Campus police turned over sixty hours worth of video discs—but somehow didn’t have the disc that covered the time and location of McKenna’s beating. They blamed it on a technical error, saying that the footage had been automatically erased by the system. Then just hours later, the disc in question magically appeared, but with two minutes of missing footage. Weird, right? Now he’s the wacky part… > > Ready? The officer who oversees the video surveillance system at the University of Maryland is married to one of cops in video. A cop who McKenna was falsely accused of attacking, before the first video showed that was a lie. Here’s how a more “objective” journalist behaves when they can’t write, “Gimme a break!”: > > > [@](#): > > > > “In another bizarre coincidence, the campus police official in charge of the video surveillance system, Lt. Joanne Ardovini, is married to one of the National Capital Park police mounted officers who was named in the complaint Prince George’s County police filed against McKenna.” > > That is certainly bizarre! What are the odds that a policeman involved in a possible cover-up could be married to a woman in a position to cover things up? What a small, corrupt world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7166 "2015-11-25T19:45:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which wouldn’t have deleted the remote copy of the video. Nor, as I said, would the police ever have needed to “gather” the video themselves - it’s as simple as putting in a blank DVD and selecting the time frame to be recorded. That may be how they used to work but I don’t think any produced today would write to a DVD. They are all USB connections now that you download video to. > [@Smapti](#): > > Who knows? Maybe there was a drug deal that happened in the parking lot. Maybe a manager is seen yelling at a customer/employee. Maybe Burger King has a policy against “parking” drive-thru orders and the video shows them doing just that. It doesn’t have to be directly related to the shooting (which BK’s cameras wouldn’t have seen anyway) in order to be a threat to BK or this particular employee. You said yourself that these don’t have a delete button. How would the manager be able to delete anything, let alone a specific time frame? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7167 "2015-11-25T19:50:14Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Or, instead of the video showing something Burger King didn’t want public, maybe it showed something the police didn’t want public. Such as what? Keep in mind - _the shooting itself would not have been captured by BK’s cameras._ This is the manager’s story; > [@](#): > > After the shooting, according to Jay Darshane, the District Manager for Burger King, four to five police officers wearing blue and white shirts entered the restaurant and asked to view the video and were given the password to the equipment. Three hours later they left, he said. _That story makes no sense._ The only person with playback access would be the restaurant manager or someone higher-up, who wouldn’t have been in the restaurant at that hour and wouldn’t have given the password out over the phone, nor would they have not come to the restaurant personally if informed that there were “four to five police officers” hanging around back-of-house for several hours. The article then points out that the independent review board noticed the missing time _the next day_, which would mean that they wouldn’t be anywhere near the point (several weeks to a month) where the footage would have been deleted for storage space, either in the restaurant or at the upload server. The only way this story makes sense is if someone deleted the local and the remote copies before the police got a chance to look at them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7168 "2015-11-25T19:51:21Z")
> [@treis](#): > > That may be how they used to work but I don’t think any produced today would write to a DVD. They are all USB connections now that you download video to. Systems that produce DVDs were still being installed new when I left the fast food industry. The grocery store I work in now is less than five years old and we provide security footage to the police by burning them DVDs. You said yourself that these don’t have a delete button. How would the manager be able to delete anything, let alone a specific time frame? [/QUOTE] The restaurant manager wouldn’t. The _district_ manager, who is the one insisting that the cops must have done it somehow, might. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7169 "2015-11-25T19:51:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who knows? Maybe there was a drug deal that happened in the parking lot. Maybe a manager is seen yelling at a customer/employee. Maybe Burger King has a policy against “parking” drive-thru orders and the video shows them doing just that. It doesn’t have to be directly related to the shooting (which BK’s cameras wouldn’t have seen anyway) in order to be a threat to BK or this particular employee. Are you now saying that is was possible for an _employee_ to delete 86 of video, just not the cops? BTW, what video surveillance system did you use, and how long ago was that? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7170 "2015-11-25T19:56:42Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Are you now saying that is was possible for an _employee_ to delete 86 of video, just not the cops? I’m saying that nobody would have been able to delete the video from _within the restaurant itself_ - only someone with access to the remote server, like, say, a district manager. Also, upon further research, [the Burger King in question closes at midnight](http://www.bk.com/restaurants/il/chicago/4060-south-pulaski-road-10366.html), so the idea that the cops were hanging around in its office for “three hours” after a shooting that took place at 10 PM _while management was not present_ becomes that much more unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7171 "2015-11-25T20:11:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Also, upon further research, [the Burger King in question closes at midnight](http://www.bk.com/restaurants/il/chicago/4060-south-pulaski-road-10366.html), so the idea that the cops were hanging around in its office for “three hours” after a shooting that took place at 10 PM _while management was not present_ becomes that much more unlikely. It may well close at midnight. The shooting, however, took place at 9:50. 2 hours before the Burger King closed. Are saying that no manager was there at that time? Or that the manager saw the clock tick ‘Midnight’ and locked the doors are drove away? That it is not common for a manager to be present in the building till all cleanup from the day is done, well after the doors are closed for business? That it is not possible for the manager to have had discussions with the police at the scene before closing and allowed them access (whether he had that authority or not)? Or even that said manager allowed them access to help out cops because of his civic-mindedness? Or even that the manager allowed them access because he\she was intimidated by men with guns who had just shot a guy? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7172 "2015-11-25T20:15:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Such as what? Keep in mind - _the shooting itself would not have been captured by BK’s cameras._ Cops getting blown by hookers in the parking lot? I don’t know. > [@](#): > > _That story makes no sense._ [Ah, the Chewbacca defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense): > [@](#): > > **Cochran** > …ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; _ **that does not make sense!** _ > > **Gerald Broflovski** > Damn it! … He’s using the Chewbacca defense! > > \*\*Cochran \*\* > Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? \*\*\*That does not make sense! \*\*\*But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! _ **It does not make sense!** _ Look at me. I’m a lawyer defending a major record company, and I’m talkin’ about Chewbacca! _ **Does that make sense?** _ Ladies and gentlemen, _ **I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense!** _ And so you have to remember, when you’re in that jury room deliberatin’ and conjugatin’ the Emancipation Proclamation, _ **does it make sense?** _ No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, _ **it does not make sense!** _ If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests. [my emphasis] ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7173 "2015-11-25T20:17:38Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > It may well close at midnight. The shooting, however, took place at 9:50. 2 hours before the Burger King closed. Are saying that no manager was there at that time? I’m saying that the _restaurant manager_ was almost certainly not there at the time, because those are not peak revenue-generating hours. and he’s the only person who would have had the ability to play back the DVR. And if he’d gotten a call from the shift manager saying that there were cops there who wanted to look at the DVR right then and there, he wouldn’t have just given out the password and then gone back to bed. There would at best have been a shift manager on the premises, and shift managers are little more than glorified crew with a few extra job duties. > [@](#): > > Or that the manager saw the clock tick ‘Midnight’ and locked the doors are drove away? That is not common for a manager to be present in the building till all cleanup from the day is done, well after the doors are closed for business? Not “well after the close of business”, no. Any time you’ve got employees on the clock and the store isn’t generating revenue is a waste of labor hours. At no point does the DM’s account mention employees or management remaining on premises well after the close of business while the police did their thing. > [@](#): > > That it is not possible for the manager to have had discussions with the police at the scene before closing and allowed them access (whether he had that authority or not)? At no point in the DM’s account does he mention the restaurant manager being present or having any discussions with the police. It’s not a question of authority for a shift manager to have given them access; it’s a question of _ability_ - in the restaurants I worked at, you couldn’t even get at the control panel for the surveillance system without opening a locked panel for which there was only one key. > [@](#): > > Or even that said manager allowed them access to help out cops because of his civic-mindedness? Or even that the manager allowed them access because he\she was intimidated by men with guns who had just shot a guy? Either of which would have gotten said manager fired for violating policy. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7174 "2015-11-25T20:23:06Z")
Smapti, do you work at that Burger King? No? Then guess what? You are totally talking out of your ass. I don’t care how many McChickens you slapped together in your career, you have no knowledge whatever of how that restautant operates, when their managers are there, who can and can’t access video, etc. Repeat … you are totally talking out of your ass. Like that’s anything new. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7175 "2015-11-25T20:30:06Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Smapti, do you work at that Burger King? No? Then guess what? You are totally talking out of your ass. I don’t care how many McChickens you slapped together in your career, you have no knowledge whatever of how that restautant operates, when their managers are there, who can and can’t access video, etc. I have professional knowledge of what technology is in use in that industry, how it works, and what commonplace best practices are for how it is used and dispensed to outsiders. You have, “Well, _obviously_ the police must have deleted it because the police are evil and any allegation of wrongdoing against the police must be automatically true regardless of context or the potential motives of the accuser”. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7176 "2015-11-25T20:35:47Z")
**Smapti** , are the protocols you observed universal? Is there only one maker of surveillance gear for the entire fast food industry? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7177 "2015-11-25T20:41:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I have professional knowledge of what technology is in use in that industry, how it works, and what commonplace best practices are for how it is used and dispensed to outsiders. Yep, **Smapti** has _professional knowledge_: > [@](#): > > Hey, I started out mopping the floor just like you guys. But now… now I’m washing lettuce. Soon I’ll be on fries; then the grill. In a year or two, I’ll make assistant manager, and that’s when the big bucks start rolling in. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7178 "2015-11-25T20:41:41Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > **Smapti** , are the protocols you observed universal? Is there only one maker of surveillance gear for the entire fast food industry? Obviously not, but the statements I have made describe all the surveillance systems I saw in use at the multiple fast food chains I have worked in in my life, as well as the surveillance system in use by my current employer. The only exception is very old systems which still record to VHS tape, which the article gives no indication is the case here. It would not be in a chain’s best interest to use a system that allows someone in the restaurant to delete footage for numerous reasons (theft by employees/management being a big one). This particular BK is owned by a franchisee, and franchisees in my experience tend to invest even _more_ in surveillance because their profit margins are thinner and they have a greater incentive to deter theft. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7179 "2015-11-25T20:51:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m saying that nobody would have been able to delete the video from _within the restaurant itself_ - only someone with access to the remote server, like, say, a district manager. > > Also, upon further research, [the Burger King in question closes at midnight](http://www.bk.com/restaurants/il/chicago/4060-south-pulaski-road-10366.html), so the idea that the cops were hanging around in its office for “three hours” after a shooting that took place at 10 PM _while management was not present_ becomes that much more unlikely. Ok color me confused. Please detail who you think deleted this video, when they did it, why they did, and how they did it. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7180 "2015-11-25T20:55:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Ok color me confused. Please detail who you think deleted this video, when they did it, why they did, and how they did it. **Smapti** has conclusively proven that the video _wasn’t actually deleted at all_. 'Cause _nobody_ would do things differently than he would. So it must still be there! You just can’t see it, is all. (Are you buying this yet?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=358) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=360)