# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 367
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7321 "2015-12-08T11:09:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, **Smapti** ’s now arguing that the government has the legal right to disappear people? Who’s talking about disappearing people? Nobody’s disappearing people. The Chicago PD isn’t pushing people off helicopters into Lake Michigan or dragging them away at night never to be seen again. Not even the reporters _calling_ this facility a black site are alleging anyone has been disappeared. The gravest accusation is that a man was held for one whole day before he was released. That you compare routine temporary holding of persons of interest to mass murder just demonstrates how hyperbolic and detached from reality this anti-cop crusade has become. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7322 "2015-12-08T13:30:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who’s talking about disappearing people? Nobody’s disappearing people. The Chicago PD isn’t pushing people off helicopters into Lake Michigan or dragging them away at night never to be seen again. Not even the reporters _calling_ this facility a black site are alleging anyone has been disappeared. The gravest accusation is that a man was held for one whole day before he was released. That you compare routine temporary holding of persons of interest to mass murder just demonstrates how hyperbolic and detached from reality this anti-cop crusade has become. Yeah, they’re only violating people’s constitutional rights a _little bit_. You’re not disappearing forever, just until they beat a confession out of you or you die. What kind of hand-wringing ninny would have a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7323 "2015-12-08T13:57:53Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No, never. Well, hardly ever. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7324 "2015-12-08T14:00:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, they’re only violating people’s constitutional rights a _little bit_. You’re not disappearing forever, just until they beat a confession out of you or you die. What kind of hand-wringing ninny would have a problem with that? Who’s beating a confession out of anyone? The article says nothing about confessions being beaten out of people. In fact, it’s specifically about people who are being questioned and released _without being charged_ and in a manner that would be inadmissable at trial anyway. These are, more than likely, low-level offenders who are being offered a get-out-of-jail-free card in exchange for info that will bring down the big fish. You’re imagining details that not even the people making the accusations are claiming because it fits what you choose to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7325 "2015-12-08T14:17:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Who’s beating a confession out of anyone? The article says nothing about confessions being beaten out of people. In fact, it’s specifically about people who are being questioned and released _without being charged_ and in a manner that would be inadmissable at trial anyway. These are, more than likely, low-level offenders who are being offered a get-out-of-jail-free card in exchange for info that will bring down the big fish. You’re imagining details that not even the people making the accusations are claiming because it fits what you choose to believe. So what you’re saying is that not only did you not read the article, you didn’t even read my summary of what was in the article. Good job **Smapti**! Here, let me help you out a little: > [@](#): > > Alleged police practices at Homan Square, according to those familiar with the facility who spoke out to the Guardian after its investigation into Chicago police abuse, include: > [ul] > [li]Beating by police, resulting in head wounds.[/li][li]Shackling for prolonged periods.[/li][li]Denying attorneys access to the “secure” facility.[/li][li]Holding people without legal counsel for between 12 and 24 hours, including people as young as 15.[/li][li]At least one man was found unresponsive in a Homan Square “interview room” and later pronounced dead.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7326 "2015-12-08T17:23:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So what you’re saying is that not only did you not read the article, you didn’t even read my summary of what was in the article. Good job **Smapti**! Nothing in that summary mentioned people having confessions beaten out of them or people being beaten to death. You’re so dead set on believing the worst about law enforcement that you’re seeing things that aren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7327 "2015-12-08T19:04:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Nothing in that summary mentioned people having confessions beaten out of them or people being beaten to death. Yeah, the beatings were just for fun. And the dead guy probably died of excitement. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7328 "2015-12-08T19:09:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, the beatings were just for fun. And the dead guy probably died of excitement. All you’re doing is speculating. You’re taking a vague report that a man was found unconscious and later died, and you’re _assuming_ that the explanation must be the one that paints the police in the most negative possible light. We heard this one before from the “The cops murdered Sandra Bland for daring to make a vlog about how she didn’t like police” crowd, we heard it from the “Darren Wilson forced Michael Brown to his knees and shot him execution-style” crowd, we heard it from the “Bernie Goetz shot four innocent men because he was racist” crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7329 "2015-12-08T19:14:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All you’re doing is speculating. You’re taking a vague report that a man was found unconscious and later died, and you’re _assuming_ that the explanation must be the one that paints the police in the most negative possible light. We heard this one before from the “The cops murdered Sandra Bland for daring to make a vlog about how she didn’t like police” crowd, we heard it from the “Darren Wilson forced Michael Brown to his knees and shot him execution-style” crowd, we heard it from the “Bernie Goetz shot four innocent men because he was racist” crowd. Yeah, how dare I assume the worst when the police beat a detainee at an unconstitutional black site? And there’s probably a perfectly innocent explanation for the body–I know there’s perfectly innocent explanations for the bodies buried in my murder basement, and I was really saddened when the police assumed the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7330 "2015-12-08T19:16:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, how dare I assume the worst when the police beat a detainee at an unconstitutional black site? The site is neither unconstitutional nor black, as has already been explained. Please do try and keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7331 "2015-12-08T19:20:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The site is neither unconstitutional nor black, as has already been explained. Please do try and keep up. Yeah, it’s not unconstitutional to \*disappear \*people provided you \*reappear \*them at some point. After they’ve been beaten to death. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7332 "2015-12-08T19:28:20Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, it’s not unconstitutional to \*disappear \*people provided you \*reappear \*them at some point. I’m not sure you’re clear on what “[disappearing someone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_disappearance)” means; > [@](#): > > In international human rights law, a forced disappearance (or enforced disappearance) occurs when a person is secretly abducted or imprisoned by a state or political organization or by a third party with the authorization, support, or acquiescence of a state or political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge the person’s fate and whereabouts, with the intent of placing the victim outside the protection of the law. > > According to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which came into force on 1 July 2002, when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed at any civilian population, a “forced disappearance” qualifies as a crime against humanity and, thus, is not subject to a statute of limitations. On 20 December 2006, the United Nations General Assembly adopted the International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance. > > Often forced disappearance implies murder. The victim in such a case is abducted, illegally detained and often tortured during interrogation; killed, and the body hidden. Typically, a murder will be surreptitious, with the corpse disposed of to escape discovery, so that the person apparently vanishes. The party committing the murder has deniability, as nobody provides evidence of the victim’s death. _Nobody_ is being subjected to that kind of treatment by the Chicago PD, or even anything close to it. We are discussing a scenario where a person is arrested, detained briefly, questioned, and released. This is something that happens _tens of thousands of times a day_ in this country, and every single law enforcement agency in America does it. It’s not unconstitutional and it’s certainly not a war crime. Comparing routine non-criminal detention to mass murder is either extremely ignorant or extremely callous, insensitive, and hyperbolic. > [@](#): > > After they’ve been beaten to death. You have absolutely no evidence that anyone was “beaten to death”. In fact, the very article that you provide as proof of your assertations states that the cause of death was found to be _heroin overdose_. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7333 "2015-12-08T19:44:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yes, he believes what he says to be true. That makes him a shitty, disgusting human being, not a troll. The two are not mutually exclusive. If one is intentionally stirring shit for the sake of stirring shit while honestly believing in what one is saying, one is still a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7334 "2015-12-08T19:52:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not sure you’re clear on what “[disappearing someone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_disappearance)” means Ummmm, let’s see which of the components of a “disappearance” we have, using \*your own \*definition: In international human rights law, a forced disappearance (or enforced disappearance) occurs when: [ol] [li]a person is secretly abducted or imprisoned [/li][li]by a state or political organization or by a third party[/li][li]with the authorization, support, or acquiescence of a state or political organization[/li][li]followed by a refusal to acknowledge the person’s fate and whereabouts[/li][li]with the intent of placing the victim outside the protection of the law.[/ol] [/li] OK, let’s see what we got: > [@](#): > > “The reality is, no one knows where that person is at Homan Square,” said Craig Futterman, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School who studies policing. “They’re disappeared at that point.” Ok, that gives us secretly abducted or imprisoned. > [@](#): > > Homan Square, a warehouse used by the Chicago police Ok, that gives us “with the authorization, support, or acquiescence of a state or political organization” > [@](#): > > No contemporaneous public record of someone’s presence at Homan Square is known to exist. Nor are any booking records generated at Homan Square, as confirmed by a sworn deposition of a police researcher in late September, further preventing relatives or attorneys from finding someone taken there. Ok, that gives us “followed by a refusal to acknowledge the person’s fate and whereabouts” > [@](#): > > Atheris Mann, Jessie Patrick and Deanda Wilson charge that they were coerced into providing false information through a series of physical, verbal and psychological assaults at the facility which their attorney said “does fit into torture under the United Nations definition” and that gives us “with the intent of placing the victim outside the protection of the law”. I believe we have a bingo! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7335 "2015-12-08T20:07:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Ok, that gives us secretly abducted or imprisoned. Not very much of a secret if it’s in the newspaper and the “disappeared” person is able to talk to the papers and their lawyer about it. > [@](#): > > Ok, that gives us “followed by a refusal to acknowledge the person’s fate and whereabouts” I’m pretty sure the state acknowledges that it knows what the fate and whereabouts of those people is - they’re _alive_ and residing in the state of Illinois. > [@](#): > > and that gives us “with the intent of placing the victim outside the protection of the law”. And yet, they’re free people today, capable of filing a lawsuit. You are seriously off the deep end here. Frankly, I’m _offended_. Actual political disappearances have ripped families apart, destroyed cultures, and ended tens of thousands of innocent lives. You dare to compare that kind of atrocity to _holding someone for questioning and releasing them a few hours later_? Why do you hate the police so much? Did you get a speeding ticket that you totally didn’t deserve because you were only going 78 in the 60 zone and the guy in the next lane over was totally going 79? Did they catch you with some weed that you were only holding for a friend, and it’s just a plant that comes from nature anyway? Did they kill your buzz by busting you for drinking half a can of Pabst when you were 15? Or maybe I’m wrong. I invite you. Go address the UN and tell them about how the city of Chicago is worse than the Argentine junta, Pinochet, and North Korea all rolled into one. I’m eager to see the voting results. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7336 "2015-12-08T20:17:57Z")
I feel offended, or at least that my intelligence has been insulted, by such a specious argument. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7337 "2015-12-08T20:18:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Not very much of a secret if it’s in the newspaper and the “disappeared” person is able to talk to the papers and their lawyer about it. Yeah, after the fact. Dumbass. > [@](#): > > You are seriously off the deep end here. Frankly, I’m _offended_. Oh no, \*\*Smapti \*\*is offended! > [@](#): > > Go address the UN and tell them about how the city of Chicago is worse than the Argentine junta, Pinochet, and North Korea all rolled into one. I’m eager to see the voting results. Yeah, if it isn’t as bad as North Korea no one gets to complain about it! Little fascists like you love chipping away at our constitutional rights in the name of convenience or security. The Argentine junta, Pinochet, and North Korea happened because of worthless shits like you who didn’t have the moral courage to stand up against abuses as they began to pile up. I called you a little Hitler youth, and I stand by that characterization, you cowardly little shit. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7338 "2015-12-08T20:28:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, after the fact. Dumbass. They wouldn’t be talking about it _at all_ if they’d actually been disappeared. > [@](#): > > Little fascists like you love chipping away at our constitutional rights in the name of convenience or security. We’re in a day and age where one of the leading candidates for president is running on a platform of white Christian nationalism. And you think _I’m_ a fascist for saying the police have the authority to briefly detain persons of interest for questioning. That says more about you than it does about me. > [@](#): > > Little fascists like you love chipping away at our constitutional rights in the name of convenience or security. You have yet to identify a single constitutional right that is being chipped away at. > [@](#): > > The Argentine junta, Pinochet, and North Korea happened because of worthless shits like you who didn’t have the moral courage to stand up against abuses as they began to pile up. The only abuses here are the ones being committed _against_ the American people by the petty criminals you seek to empower with your anarchist ramblings. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7339 "2015-12-08T20:35:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They wouldn’t be talking about it _at all_ if they’d actually been disappeared. And we’re back to you not caring about unconstitutional behavior if those constitutional abuses end at some point. So it’s basically OK to kidnap you and chain you to a bench and starve you, provided you’re released at some point? Actually, that should be a rhetorical question: I know that would be fine with _you_, but for those of us with self-respect, a conscience and morals it’s not OK. > [@](#): > > We’re in a day and age where one of the leading candidates for president is running on a platform of white Christian nationalism. I’m sure he’s grateful for your vote. > [@](#): > > You have yet to identify a single constitutional right that is being chipped away at. Try not to be so stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7340 "2015-12-08T20:43:31Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So it’s basically OK to kidnap you and chain you to a bench and starve you, provided you’re released at some point?. An arrest is not a “kidnapping” (unless you are, in fact, an anarchist who believes the state has no authority to deprive a person of liberty under any circumstances), so the entire remainder of your question is based on a faulty premise. > [@](#): > > I’m sure he’s grateful for your vote. I’m with Bernie, thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=366) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=368)