# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 373
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7441 "2015-12-13T23:55:33Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > All the cops in the case are on paid leave. What other job can you fuck up so horribly and get a paid vacation for it? Does not presumption of innocence apply? For their leave to be unpaid would presume their guilt, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7442 "2015-12-14T00:08:10Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Does not presumption of innocence apply? For their leave to be unpaid would presume their guilt, wouldn’t it? Why would it apply? They weren’t charged with a crime and the event no doubt happened. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7443 "2015-12-14T00:59:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > First, watching the video, I see two shots. It appears clear to me. What about you? It looks like two to me, as well. I just don’t understand that video at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7444 "2015-12-14T01:51:08Z")
I understand why Smapti’s position is that police, upon arriving at the scene, should pre-emptively shoot every person there, since any of them could be armed and any of them could go from slowly walking to lethally charging instantly and indeed since any of them could have Special Forces training giving them mad instant-kill skillz, police should fire dozens of rounds. Anyone who argues otherwise obvious wants cops to die and society to fall. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7445 "2015-12-14T03:51:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Does not presumption of innocence apply? For their leave to be unpaid would presume their guilt, wouldn’t it? The paid leave is somewhat analogous to putting someone in jail: the person in jail (pending bond/recognizance) is not (by most) called a “criminal”, they are a “suspect”. The press/media are usually very circumspect about this kind of language, not using “criminal” unless/until a person has been convicted of a crime. Meanwhile, business managers kill, maim and injure employees from time to time, making callous profit-based decisions that have problematic effects. Sometimes even their customers suffer, yet these executives are not always charged for their sociopathic behavior and may well receive bonuses for saving the company money, at least in the short term. So, there is a parallel there. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7446 "2015-12-14T14:55:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I understand why Smapti’s position is that police, upon arriving at the scene, should pre-emptively shoot every person there, since any of them could be armed and any of them could go from slowly walking to lethally charging instantly and indeed since any of them could have Special Forces training giving them mad instant-kill skillz, police should fire dozens of rounds. > > Anyone who argues otherwise obvious wants cops to die and society to fall. “Strawman Alert” - “Strawman Alert”. _Warning Will Robinson. Dr. Smith is creating a strawman._ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7447 "2015-12-14T16:52:26Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “Strawman Alert” - “Strawman Alert”. > > _Warning Will Robinson. Dr. Smith is creating a strawman._ 😃 I understand why you think you’re funny. It’s because you’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7448 "2015-12-14T17:03:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I understand why you think you’re funny. Hahahaha. You still created a strawman. It’s OK, you can admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7449 "2015-12-14T17:06:10Z")
[Psych evaluations may be required for all police hires in Colorado](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29246609/psych-evaluations-may-be-required-all-police-hires). the most shocking part of this story to me is that psych evaluations weren’t required already. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7450 "2015-12-15T20:54:24Z")
Jury reports they are deadlocked in the Officer William Porter on trial in the death of Freddy Gray in Baltimore. The judge has ordered them to continue. The city is on edge, and significant police forces are present, but staying out of sight. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7451 "2015-12-16T12:36:19Z")
Interesting article on [using data to identify bad cops](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-predict-which-chicago-cops-will-commit-misconduct/). Not surprisingly, police departments are reluctant to provide this kind of data (on complaints received for individual cops). Some of the article’s conclusions: “the number of complaints an officer receives in a certain year predicts whether and how many complaints he or she will have in the following year” The 22% of cops who receive the most complaints amount to over 50% of all the complaints the Chicago PD received. So if just a small number of bad cops were removed, a huge chunk of the complaints would go away. Police Departments have the tools to remove at least some of their worst cops – the cops most likely to cost Departments money, respect, and trust, by themselves. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7452 "2015-12-17T21:38:48Z")
The _Washington Post_ had an opinion piece on the Freddie Gray mistrial: [Why no one should be truly shocked by the mistrial in the Freddie Gray case](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/17/why-no-one-should-be-truly-shocked-by-the-mistrial-in-the-freddie-gray-case/?hpid=hp_local-news_fix-gray-944am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory) First two paragraphs: > [@](#): > > Just as the nation has developed an increasingly stale ritual on mass shootings – one of shock, followed by mass grief, followed closely or sometimes concurrently by public statements about gun policy – there are now a series of cultural cliches and almost meaningless declarations that can be expected after yet another police officer, facing the rare event of criminal charges, manages to go home a free man or woman. > > First there is a death – that person is disproportionately likely to be black and, often, but not always, young. A far, far smaller share are also unarmed. Then there is an outpouring of concern for the dead and/or the police officer or officers involved. The latter is, all too often, based on a selective set of facts and the aggressive attempts of local police departments to deny wrongdoing, withhold information or distract a sometimes-all-too-receptive press and public with any and all things the dead have ever done wrong. It also had this link (which I think was posted a while ago): [Thousands dead, few prosecuted](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/04/11/thousands-dead-few-prosecuted/) > [@](#): > > Among the thousands of fatal shootings at the hands of police since 2005, only 54 officers have been charged, a Post analysis found. Most were cleared or acquitted in the cases that have been resolved. Because they are all good shootings, right? (Check out the accompanying photo at the top of the page) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7453 "2015-12-18T18:49:18Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > (Check out the accompanying photo at the top of the page) Good Lord. Look at the caption! > [@](#): > > An evidence photo shows a Chevy Malibu that Cleveland police officers riddled with bullets after a chase that ended in the deaths of an unarmed man and woman. Officer Michael Brelo, who investigators say fired 34 shots at the car and then climbed on the hood and fired 15 more through the windshield, faced trial on two counts of voluntary manslaughter. One cop fired 49 times? He would have had to reload twice and keep firing! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7454 "2015-12-18T19:04:31Z")
Clearly he felt he was still in danger, right Smapti? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7455 "2015-12-18T19:52:55Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Good Lord. Look at the caption! > One cop fired 49 times? He would have had to reload twice and keep firing! It gets worse. He was aquitted. > **[Brelo verdict: Cleveland officer acquitted after shooting unarmed couple -...](https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/25/us/cleveland-police-verdict-up-to-speed/)** > > How can a police officer fire 15 shots into a car with two unarmed people inside and then get acquitted after their deaths? He fired 34 times, then climbed up on the hood of the car (if he was in fear for his life, this seems like a strange tactic) and fired 15 more times through the windshield at an unarmed couple. This officer was responsible for only 49 of the 137 bullets the police fired at the car. > [@](#): > > The amount of gunfire \*\*confused the officers into thinking they were being fired at \*\*from the vehicle. In the end, thirteen officers fired a total of 137 bullets into the car, with Officer Michael Brelo firing 49 of those shots.[4] Russell was struck 23 times, and Williams was struck 24 times. No weapon was recovered from the vehicle.[5][6][7][8] So, we need to ask ourselves: Do cops no longer utter the phrase 'Come out with your hands up? Should we be happy that the other 12 officers fired only 7 shots each (on average) Was Smapti on this particular jury? Did the prosecutor throw the case? Is there simply no justice? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7456 "2015-12-20T14:19:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > And [here we have](https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2015/12/california-cop-wont-be-charged-for-shooting-man-after-rollover-accident/) the DA’s justification for _not indicting the cop_. > > It was an accidental shooting, as evidenced by the fact that the cop jerked in surprise at the shot, and by the fact that there was only one shot when by training it should have been two. > > But this makes no sense. > > First, watching the video, I see two shots. It appears clear to me. What about you? > > Second, the “jerking” seems, at best, very open to interpretation. > > Third: The DA’s theory implies the cop knew he had fired the shot. And this is probably true–it’s further evidenced by the fact that in the longer video can be seen looking for a long time at the ground where he had fired the shot(s)–why would he be looking there unless it was to find the casings for the shots? Yet, knowing he had just fired the shot, he did not call this in, he did not report any of this until an EMT said the guy in the car had been shot. I am not sure where the following information comes from but apparently when the cop asked the guy to climb out of the car the guy said “I can’t, you shot me,” the cop reported this as the guy _refusing_ to exit the vehicle. > > The guy is paralyzed now from the neck down, probably for life. > > Even the _best possible spin_ on this for the cop is that he accidentally fired (looks like twice to me) and somehow didn’t realize the shots had actually hit the guy–despite seeing the guy go down. That he didn’t check to see, that he didn’t take seriously the guy’s report that he had been shot, should lead to criminal charges, should it not? > > And that’s assuming it’s not just a straight up murder. > > There’s no way this cop is not guilty. And yet, he is not going to be prosecuted. I don’t even know if he lost his job. [The guy shot by the police officer has died.](http://www.chicoer.com/general-news/20151216/video-commander-surprised-by-officers-shooting-admission) And newly released video reveals the surprised reaction of the commander when the cop mentions–11 minutes after the fact–that he had an “accidental discharge”. That wasn’t no accidental discharge. I learned about this story on Reddit. Normally when a story like this comes out, Redditors seem to be evenly split on whether the accused cop should be charged (there are a lot of **Smapti** types on Reddit, apparently). But in this case, it’s unanimous. Anyone with two eyes can see that the guy didn’t accidentally do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7457 "2015-12-20T14:28:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > That wasn’t no accidental discharge. So it was what, then? He saw a flipped car in the middle of the road and just decided to shoot the first person he saw, but only once? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7458 "2015-12-20T14:44:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So it was what, then? He saw a flipped car in the middle of the road and just decided to shoot the first person he saw, but only once? Even on the theory that it was a single accidental discharge, he saw the guy go down, heard the guy say he’d been shot, and said nothing to anyone about this. There is, even on this theory, a negligence charge to be brought against the guy. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7459 "2015-12-20T14:56:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So it was what, then? He saw a flipped car in the middle of the road and just decided to shoot the first person he saw, but only once? He shot him only once because he only needed to shoot him once. One shot was all it took. I’m guessing he gets a lot of practice playing video games. Are you asking why he would possibly shoot the guy? Well, I can imagine in his little pea brain, he saw the guy trying to scramble out of the vehicle and immediately thought, “The little fucker’s trying to run away from the accident he just caused! Let me put a stop to that!” But the problem with pea brains is that they can only consider one scenario at a time. Perhaps the guy was trying to get out of the car because he’s like most people. He didn’t want to be stuck in a rolled-over vehicle that, if movies are to be believed, could explode at any moment. And then there was the fact that his poor wife was strewn out on the road. Who’d want to stay in the car, knowing a loved one was dying on the other side of the door? Let’s say it was an accident. Why the fuck should the cop still have a job? Is it considered competent policing to approach the scene of a car accident with one’s weapon drawn like that? Would you want a police officer to approach you like that, and then after having shot you, pretend that you’re resisting when you don’t respond to your commands, and then allow 11 minutes to elapse before informing someone that you made an oopsie with your weapon? Is that what good policing looks like in Smaptiland? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7460 "2015-12-20T15:03:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Let’s say it was an accident. Why the fuck should the cop still have a job? Is it considered competent policing to approach the scene of a car accident with one’s weapon drawn like that? Would you want a police officer to approach you like that, and then after having shot you, pretend that you’re resisting when you don’t respond to your commands, and then allow 11 minutes to elapse before informing someone that you made an oopsie with your weapon? Is that what good policing looks like in Smaptiland? It’s entirely possible that he fired the shot, knew he fired the shot, but didn’t realize he shot the man. Which _would_ make him an idiot who shouldn’t be allowed to handle firearms, but it doesn’t make him a murderer, and it sure makes a lot more sense than “he decided to shoot him but not shoot to kill so that he could go on to tell others he’d been shot by the cop, and then lie about it knowing that the video and the ballistics would finger him anyway”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=372) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=374)