# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 379
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7561 "2015-12-27T17:33:56Z")
As reported in the GD forum, [Ohio police are being sued for arresting a man with a gun when he was unwilling or unable to show his carry permit.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18966464&postcount=56) My question is: Should the cop have just shot the perp instead of arresting him? After all, we know cops can be in fear of life, and therefore justified in shooting to kill, if a suspect reaches into his pocket for ID after being asked to present ID, or if an accident victim opens the door of his damaged vehicle. Surely a suspect _who actually has a gun_ is more fearsome. That particular Ohio cop was compassionate enough to just arrest the suspect, but after the lawsuit cops should learn the message: Arrest → Get sued Kill → Justified shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7562 "2015-12-27T19:23:15Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > We have it from the replicant’s mouth. Murder is no longer prosecutable. > > “Your honor, I poured the rat poison into the coffee intending to feed it to a rat. But while my back was turned wifey drank it.” > – Case dismissed. There is nothing to prove defendant’s claim is impossible. Indeed. The arguments are rapidly approaching the level of the _Astro City_ story where a lawyer successfully defended a mobster who killed someone in front of multiple witnesses by invoking various comic-book tropes (which admittedly aren’t _impossible_ in that setting) such as the possibility that the victim wasn’t actually dead or that the killer was an evil twin from another universe. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7563 "2015-12-28T13:36:57Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Well, it looks like the Chicago Police Department is going to be handing out a big bouquet of [oopsy daisies](http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/27/us/chicago-police-shooting/index.html). > > Another ‘accidental’ police shooting. How many of these are there going to be before things change? How many non-cops could get away with the ‘accidental discharge’ defence. Teenage boys have accidental discharge, people carrying guns should not. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If all you have is “shoot first” training, every problem looks like a target. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7564 "2015-12-28T18:16:42Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Well, it looks like the Chicago Police Department is going to be handing out a big bouquet of [oopsy daisies](http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/27/us/chicago-police-shooting/index.html). > > Another ‘accidental’ police shooting. How many of these are there going to be before things change? How many non-cops could get away with the ‘accidental discharge’ defence. Teenage boys have accidental discharge, people carrying guns should not. Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel should resign but that’s a different issue. ( _She (Cooksey) was surrounded by supporters, some who wore T-shirts saying “Rahm failed us.”_ hehehe. ) _CNN affiliate WLS reported that LeGrier’s family said he suffered from a mental illness, though his mother disputed that characterization Sunday._ \*…LeGrier’s family said the Northern Illinois University student suffered from a mental illness, WLS had reported, but on Sunday Cooksey disputed that characterization. “Stop disparaging his character,” she pleaded Sunday. “He does not have mental issues. He was an honors student.”\* If the family can’t agree on his “mental illness”, how are the police supposed to know that the guy charging at them while swinging an aluminum bat is mentally ill AND NOT just a deadly threat? Someone is swinging a deadly weapon. Someone else fears for their life. The police are called to handle the situation. Maybe those/that concerned citizen(s) should have called the bat swinger’s mother instead of the police? Why can’t the media outlets verify the information before they release their stories? _Dorsey (a retired Los Angeles police sergeant and law enforcement consultant for CNN) said an aluminum bat could cause injury but “is not a deadly force.”_ Dorsey is wrong. An aluminum bat, knife, or a bag of car radios can be considered deadly force when they are used as such. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7565 "2015-12-28T18:44:27Z")
What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7566 "2015-12-28T19:04:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If the family can’t agree on his “mental illness”, how are the police supposed to know that the guy charging at them while swinging an aluminum bat is mentally ill AND NOT just a deadly threat? Someone is swinging a deadly weapon. Someone else fears for their life. The police are called to handle the situation. Did you read the cited article? It does not state that the youth swung the bat, only that he had carried and acted in a combative manner. > [@](#): > > Police said an officer shot LeGrier, who was carrying a metal bat and acting in a “combative” manner, I guess the neighbor was also acting in a combative manner, because they shot him too. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7567 "2015-12-28T19:29:00Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? Did you read the linked article? That might help? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7568 "2015-12-28T19:37:51Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Did you read the cited article? It does not state that the youth swung the bat, only that he had carried and acted in a combative manner. > > I guess the neighbor was also acting in a combative manner, because they shot him too. Perhaps if you defined “combative manner” it would help clarify his actions? He threatened his father with the bat OR while carrying a bat in a non-threatening manner, he threatened his father? While carrying a bat, he ran downstairs in a non-threatening manner OR while carrying a bat in a non-threatening manner, he ran downstairs in a threatening manner? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7569 "2015-12-28T20:28:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Perhaps if you defined “combative manner” it would help clarify his actions? He threatened his father with the bat OR while carrying a bat in a non-threatening manner, he threatened his father? While carrying a bat, he ran downstairs in a non-threatening manner OR while carrying a bat in a non-threatening manner, he ran downstairs in a threatening manner? I will not define ‘combative manner’ as it was not me who used the term. It was the cops, who shot him and neighbor who had the misfortune of being the one who opened the door. YOU said he swung the bat and you used ‘threatening’ . The cite doesn’t support that. The cite only says he was ‘charging down the stairs, carrying the bat’ and ‘combative manner’. Lot’s of wiggle room in that term. > [@](#): > > LeGrier was charging down the stairs still carrying the bat, the affiliate reported. Police opened fire, and both LeGrier and Jones were shot. I don’t know about you, but I have some questions. First among them, how far away were the police officers when they opened fire? Did they identify themselves? Shout any commands like ‘Drop the weapon’? How may shots were fired in total? The cite doesn’t provide these details. I think we can all agree that the story is badly written. One thing we can assume is that they didn’t bother to identify the neighbor as a non-participant or give him time to move away. They just shot her. She was 55. They said she was ‘accidentally struck and tragically killed’. That just raises more questions. The question the mother asks is valid. Why did they open fire? Especially with another unidentified party in the line of fire. An aluminum bat against multiple police officers? No one though to back up a few steps and pull the taser? Maybe try to tackle him? Do all the cops shoot in panic like Terry in Brooklyn 99?? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7570 "2015-12-28T20:28:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Did you read the linked article? That might help? Was Bettie Jones combative as well you stupid ass hat? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7571 "2015-12-28T21:28:38Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > …I don’t know about you, but I have some questions. First among them, how far away were the police officers when they opened fire? Did they identify themselves? Shout any commands like ‘Drop the weapon’? How may shots were fired in total? The cite doesn’t provide these details. > > I think we can all agree that the story is badly written. > > One thing we can assume is that they didn’t bother to identify the neighbor as a non-participant or give him time to move away. They just shot her. She was 55. They said she was ‘accidentally struck and tragically killed’. That just raises more questions. > > The question the mother asks is valid. Why did they open fire? Especially with another unidentified party in the line of fire. An aluminum bat against multiple police officers? No one though to back up a few steps and pull the taser? Maybe try to tackle him? (Post shortened, underline added) Many questions remain unanswered. Many questions remain unasked. You ask several good questions but still say, “They just shot her”. It’s unknown if the police were trying to shoot her. Was she trying to exit thru the doorway ahead of the angry loony with the bat? At what point did the shooting start? Was batboy inside the house or outside? Was the 55 year old in front of or behind batboy (viewed from the street/sidewalk/officer’s viewpoint)? Did one or more officers fire with the intention of protecting the 55yr old from harm? This is a tragic situation for everyone. Personally, I would prefer that the media outlets verify the story’s facts before they publish it. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7572 "2015-12-28T21:29:43Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Was Bettie Jones combative as well you stupid ass hat? That’s an incredibly stupid thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7573 "2015-12-29T00:24:20Z")
In news that I’m sure will come as a great surprise to absolutely no-one by now, the cop who shot Tamir Rice won’t be prosecuted. The prosecution didn’t even get past the Grand Jury stage. Now, I’m hardly _au fait_ with the intricacies of the U.S. justice system, so please correct me if I’m wrong here, but as I understand it, Grand Jury hearings are basically formalities, right? Something like 99.9% of cases that go before a Grand Jury are sent to trial. According to [this](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/) article, US attorneys prosecuted 162,000 cases in 2010. Know how many didn’t get past the Grand Jury stage? Eleven. So it’s actually more like 99.993% What’s more, according to [this](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/28/tamir-rice-shooting-no-charges-cleveland-officer-timothy-loehmann) Guardian article: \*"In a statement, Tamir’s family said they were “saddened and disappointed” by the outcome, “but not surprised”. “It has been clear for months now that Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy McGinty was abusing and manipulating the grand jury process to orchestrate a vote against indictment,” the statement said. The family accused McGinty of mishandling the grand jury process, by hiring expert witnesses and allowing the officers to read prepared statements, which “compounded the grief of this family”."\* If all this is true, it really does show that there’s one rule for cops and another rule for the little people, doesn’t it? Fuck’s sake… ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7574 "2015-12-29T00:47:17Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You ask several good questions but still say, “They just shot her”. It’s unknown if the police were trying to shoot her. . Well, their own words were ‘accidentally’ and tragically’. But this is after the fact. _After_ they realize she was just a neighbor. So we’ll take that with a grain of salt. > [@](#): > > Jones, a neighbor, was “accidentally struck and tragically killed,” police said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7575 "2015-12-29T01:08:40Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > In news that I’m sure will come as a great surprise to absolutely no-one by now, the cop who shot Tamir Rice won’t be prosecuted. The prosecution didn’t even get past the Grand Jury stage. Now, I’m hardly _au fait_ with the intricacies of the U.S. justice system, so please correct me if I’m wrong here, but as I understand it, Grand Jury hearings are basically formalities, right? Something like 99.9% of cases that go before a Grand Jury are sent to trial. According to [this](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/) article, US attorneys prosecuted 162,000 cases in 2010. Know how many didn’t get past the Grand Jury stage? > > Eleven. > > So it’s actually more like 99.993% > > What’s more, according to [this](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/28/tamir-rice-shooting-no-charges-cleveland-officer-timothy-loehmann) Guardian article: > > \*"In a statement, Tamir’s family said they were “saddened and disappointed” by the outcome, “but not surprised”. > > “It has been clear for months now that Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy McGinty was abusing and manipulating the grand jury process to orchestrate a vote against indictment,” the statement said. > > The family accused McGinty of mishandling the grand jury process, by hiring expert witnesses and allowing the officers to read prepared statements, which “compounded the grief of this family”."\* > > If all this is true, it really does show that there’s one rule for cops and another rule for the little people, doesn’t it? > > Fuck’s sake… I’m not surprised by the outcome, but I think it’s wrong, and I think [Judge Adrine was right](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/tamir-rice-case-cleveland/395420/), and the actions of the cops should result in indictments. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7576 "2015-12-30T03:39:19Z")
[Chicago officer pleads not guilty to murder charges](http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-officer-charged-2014-fatal-shooting-enter-plea-133959722.html#). No surprise there. But according to the article, “Van Dyke, 37, faces six counts of first-degree murder and one of official misconduct in the death of 17-year-old McDonald.” Can one of our legal types explain how they’re getting six counts of murder out of one death? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7577 "2015-12-30T18:09:40Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > [Chicago officer pleads not guilty to murder charges](http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-officer-charged-2014-fatal-shooting-enter-plea-133959722.html#). > > No surprise there. But according to the article, “Van Dyke, 37, faces six counts of first-degree murder and one of official misconduct in the death of 17-year-old McDonald.” > > Can one of our legal types explain how they’re getting six counts of murder out of one death? Not a “legal type” but the Chicago Tribune has published the indictment return sheet. Illinois State Law lists a plethora of statutes related to murder, intent to kill, intent to injure, and having a strong probability to kill and/or injure. The Assistant State’s Attorney selected six that he believe applies to this case (and would increase the likelihood of getting a conviction on at least one count). INFORMATION INDICTMENT RETURN SHEET CASE NO. 15CR-20622 IR 2306293 DEFENDANT Jason Van Dyke No. 001 ARRAIGNMENT 12/29/2015 GJ- 161 FBI-XJ5E48PA3 ISB-45954410 Municipal-15-1127823 CB-19227223 Arrest Agy: COOK COUNTY STATE’S ARRORNEY RD/AR-15-IB110156 Arrest Unit: ``` Arrest Date: 11/24/2105 ``` DL State: \*\*\* DL#: \*\*\* Hgt: 602 Wgt: 210 Hair: Brown Eyes: Blue True Bill ASA: William G Delaney 001 MURDER/INTENT TO KILL/INJURE WITH FIREARM 720 ILCS 5/9-1(a) (1) 0753000 Class: M 002 MURDER/STRONG PROB KILL/INJURE FIREARM 720 ILCS 5/9-1 (a) (2) 0753000 Class: M 003 MURDER/INTENT TO KILL/INJURE DISCHARGE FIREARM 720 ILCS 5/9-1(a) (1) 0753000 Class: M 004 MURDER/STRONG PROB KILL/INJURE DISCHARGE FIREARM 720 ILCS 5/9-1(a) (2) 0753000 Class: M 005 MURDER/INTENT TO KILL/INJURE DISCHARGE FIREARM PROXIMATELY 720 ILCS 5/9-1(a) (1) 0753000 Class: M 006 MURDER/STRONG PROB KILL/INJURE DISCHARGE FIREARM PROXIMATELY 720 ILCS 5/9-1(a) (2) 0753000 Class: M [http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-jason-van-dyke-indictment-document-20151216-htmlstory.html](http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-jason-van-dyke-indictment-document-20151216-htmlstory.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7578 "2015-12-30T19:12:58Z")
Here is an interesting [recap of 2015](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/police-reform-numbers-2015_5672e150e4b0688701dc7a54?utm_hp_ref=canada&ir=Canada§ion=canada&adsSiteOverride=ca). 34 police officers were killed in the line of duty. 1125 people were kill by police. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7579 "2015-12-30T19:18:29Z")
34 too many. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7580 "2015-12-30T19:22:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 34 too many. And the 1125 others? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=378) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=380)