# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 380
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7581 "2015-12-30T19:31:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And the 1125 others? It’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7582 "2015-12-30T19:32:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And the 1125 others? 160 of them weren’t shot and the article doesn’t differentiate between those who were run over, those who had negative responses to Tasers or pepper spray, or those who died of suicide or natural causes while in custody. Of the remaining 965, 875 were armed when they were shot. We’re left with a grand total of 90 unarmed people who were shot by police and which might possibly be unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7583 "2015-12-30T19:44:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 160 of them weren’t shot and the article doesn’t differentiate between those who were run over, those who had negative responses to Tasers or pepper spray, or those who died of suicide or natural causes while in custody. > > Of the remaining 965, 875 were armed when they were shot. > > We’re left with a grand total of 90 unarmed people who were shot by police and which might possibly be unjustified. Why are you excluding those who weren’t shot? Freddie Gray wasn’t shot. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7584 "2015-12-30T19:50:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why are you excluding those who weren’t shot? Freddie Gray wasn’t shot. Freddie Gray wasn’t “killed by police”, either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7585 "2015-12-30T20:13:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Freddie Gray wasn’t “killed by police”, either. That has yet to be determined (legally speaking). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7586 "2015-12-30T20:34:20Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Here is an interesting [recap of 2015](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/police-reform-numbers-2015_5672e150e4b0688701dc7a54?utm_hp_ref=canada&ir=Canada§ion=canada&adsSiteOverride=ca). This part is awesome: _6: The age of the youngest victim of a fatal police shooting this year. Jeremy Mardis, an autistic boy, was shot by Louisiana police in November. … The shooting drew attention to a small-town police force that has been plagued by problem officers, including Stafford and Greenhouse, who had both been named in a number of civil complaints. Other reports suggested there was an escalating turf war between two law enforcement departments in Marksville, and that the two officers may have been given more leeway to patrol the town and issue citations as a result._ “Turf war”? _Turf fucking war?_ That is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7587 "2015-12-30T20:42:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Freddie Gray wasn’t “killed by police”, either. Well, his spine was crushed while in police custody. > [@](#): > > The medical investigation found that Gray had sustained the injuries while in transport. On May 1, 2015, the Baltimore City State’s Attorney, Marilyn Mosby, announced her office had filed charges against six police officers after the medical examiner’s report ruled Gray’s death a homicide, on the grounds that Gray had died as a result of a ‘rough ride’ - a form of police brutality in which **a victim is helplessly thrown around by deliberately abrupt driving while unable to keep themselves safe due to use of restraints**. (Rough rides were already implicated in deaths, paralysis, and severe spinal injuries in several other cases.) SOP in Baltimore. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7588 "2015-12-30T20:51:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Freddie Gray wasn’t “killed by police”, either. Did he commit suicide? Or was it just a natural death from old age? What, exactly, killed him? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7589 "2015-12-30T20:51:28Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > In news that I’m sure will come as a great surprise to absolutely no-one by now, the cop who shot Tamir Rice won’t be prosecuted. The prosecution didn’t even get past the Grand Jury stage. Now, I’m hardly _au fait_ with the intricacies of the U.S. justice system, so please correct me if I’m wrong here, but as I understand it, Grand Jury hearings are basically formalities, right? Something like 99.9% of cases that go before a Grand Jury are sent to trial. According to [this](http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/ferguson-michael-brown-indictment-darren-wilson/) article, US attorneys prosecuted 162,000 cases in 2010. Know how many didn’t get past the Grand Jury stage? > > Eleven. > > So it’s actually more like 99.993% > > What’s more, according to [this](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/28/tamir-rice-shooting-no-charges-cleveland-officer-timothy-loehmann) Guardian article: > > \*"In a statement, Tamir’s family said they were “saddened and disappointed” by the outcome, “but not surprised”. > > “It has been clear for months now that Cuyahoga County prosecutor Timothy McGinty was abusing and manipulating the grand jury process to orchestrate a vote against indictment,” the statement said. > > The family accused McGinty of mishandling the grand jury process, by hiring expert witnesses and allowing the officers to read prepared statements, which “compounded the grief of this family”."\* > > If all this is true, it really does show that there’s one rule for cops and another rule for the little people, doesn’t it? > > Fuck’s sake… The _Post_ has a story on the Grand Jury: [The Tamir Rice case shows how prosecutors twist grand juries to protect police](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/29/in-tamir-rices-case-the-grand-jury-process-was-turned-upside-down/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory) > [@](#): > > _The grand jury process didn’t fail this time. It worked exactly how prosecutors wanted it to — that’s the problem._ > > There’s a legitimate debate about whether the Cleveland police officer who killed Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy holding a toy pellet gun, should be charged with any crime. > > There is really no legal debate, however, that the Ohio prosecutor handling the case, Tim McGinty, turned the grand jury process upside down. > > McGinty, who led a year-long inquiry into the shooting, announced Monday that a Cuyahoga County grand jury voted against charging the officers and was candid about helping lead them there: “The Grand Jury declined to bring criminal charges,” he said. “That was also my recommendation, after reviewing the facts and the law.” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7590 "2015-12-30T20:54:57Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > SOP in Baltimore. Yes, the bit about Baltimore paying out $5.7 million in police misconduct cases is telling. The article also states that they paid about the same amount defending the cops. I’m sure the people of Baltimore love that triple dip. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7591 "2015-12-30T20:58:30Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Did he commit suicide? Or was it just a natural death from old age? What, exactly, killed him? He refused to stop resisting so that he could be restrained in the back of the police van and suffered fatal injuries as a result. Suicide by cop, really. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7592 "2015-12-30T21:04:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He refused to stop resisting so that he could be restrained in the back of the police van and suffered fatal injuries as a result. Says who? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7593 "2015-12-30T21:04:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Suicide by cop, really. And that doesn’t count because why? Police are not mandated to assist people with suicide, are they? Maybe a new term is in order, Policide. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7594 "2015-12-30T21:30:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He refused to stop resisting so that he could be restrained in the back of the police van and suffered fatal injuries as a result. > > Suicide by cop, really. No, “suicide by cop” involves deliberate intent to make the police kill you. Freddie Gray _fled_ from the police and demonstrated that he intended to evade them. The officers them caught him and beat him up real good for no obvious reason other than that he ran away. The beating and the rough ride resulted in Gray’s death, which would not have happened at all if the officers had not appeared on the scene in the first place. That qualifies as homicide. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7595 "2015-12-30T22:36:38Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Freddie Gray _fled_ from the police and demonstrated that he intended to evade them. The officers them caught him and beat him up real good for no obvious reason other than that he ran away. Funny how nobody ever wants to talk about _why_ Gray, who _surely_ was an upstanding member of the community that never did nothing to no one, responded to seeing some police in the vicinity by deciding to run for his life. > [@](#): > > The beating and the rough ride resulted in Gray’s death It has not been proven that a “rough ride” occurred, and to the contrary the evidence asserts that Gray was injured because he refused to let the cops buckle him in. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7596 "2015-12-30T22:50:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Funny how nobody ever wants to talk about _why_ Gray, who _surely_ was an upstanding member of the community that never did nothing to no one, responded to seeing some police in the vicinity by deciding to run for his life. Really? You have not been paying attention? Because it definitely _has_ been discussed. The general consensus among the a-Smaptians is that he had probably experienced sufficient random harassment from the police that he assumed that they would habitually choose to harass him on sight, so he fled, in order to avoid harassment. You are just like every other asshole who says things like “_if you’re innocent, why are you perspiring?_” Running away from the police does not count as evidence of guilt. > [@](#): > > It has not been proven that a “rough ride” occurred, and to the contrary the evidence asserts that Gray was injured because he refused to let the cops buckle him in. First, the video I saw showed him being loaded into the van in a cudgelent condition, far from being realistically able to refuse to be buckled in. But, more importantly, the injury to his spine appears to have been caused by a bolt inside the van: buckling him in would not have prevented or even reduced that injury, possibly might have made it worse. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7597 "2015-12-30T23:50:32Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The general consensus among the a-Smaptians is that he had probably experienced sufficient random harassment from the police that he assumed that they would habitually choose to harass him on sight, so he fled, in order to avoid harassment. Then he ought to have known that the best way to avoid being harassed was to _not_ make himself noticeable. It’s far more likely that he was engaged in criminal acts at the time and ran because he feared getting caught. > [@](#): > > Running away from the police does not count as evidence of guilt. Innocent people don’t run from the police. > [@](#): > > But, more importantly, the injury to his spine appears to have been caused by a bolt inside the van: buckling him in would not have prevented or even reduced that injury, possibly might have made it worse. Then you’re acknowledging that his death would have occurred regardless of what the police did, and therefore they cannot be held responsible for it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7598 "2015-12-31T00:07:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > {…} It has not been proven that a “rough ride” occurred, {…} Where was Gray being driven to after he was arrested? [Maps.](https://www.google.com/search?q=freddie+grey+van+route&num=100&newwindow=1&biw=1067&bih=455&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJzZ6E5ITKAhUK5CYKHe3aA6MQ_AUICSgD#imgrc=_) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7599 "2015-12-31T00:07:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Innocent people don’t run from the police. Do police ever harass innocent people? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/7600 "2015-12-31T00:22:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then he ought to have known that the best way to avoid being harassed was to _not_ make himself noticeable. He was trying to make himself not noticeable by making himself elsewhere. Yes he had been in trouble in the past, as I understand it. The police are certainly not above fucking with people because they can. There seems to be some indication that Freddie Gray was one of the people they liked to fuck with. He tried to depart in order to avoid that. > [@](#): > > It’s far more likely that he was engaged in criminal acts at the time and ran because he feared getting caught. Whatever. You are so full of shit. > [@](#): > > Then you’re acknowledging that his death would have occurred regardless of what the police did, and therefore they cannot be held responsible for it. The police could have avoided killing Freddie Gray by not arresting him _pro se_. They could have chosen to not beat the crap out of him in the process of arresting him. They could have transported him in some way different than one would transport a side of beef. They could have had a supervising officer in the back of the vehicle. There are several ways that they are responsible. Or more accurately, irresponsible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=379) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=381)