# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/761 "2015-02-11T00:22:54Z")
It’s even worse though. From the article: > [@](#): > > Madison, a booming bedroom community, is home to about 46,000 residents just outside Huntsville. While largely white and affluent, with a per capita income almost double the state average, the young city is also home to many foreign-born professionals. One in 10 residents speak something other than English in the home, and 8 percent of residents were born in another country. With those sort of demographics, the cop should have been very aware of the possibility of language barriers. Here’s another proposal. Pass a law _with mild sentences_ for something like actions betraying the public trust while in figurative or actual uniform. Mild punishment is key: otherwise convictions will be harder. Criminology 101 says that deterrence is much more a result of swift sanction than heavy sanction. Even 2-12 months in the slammer might have a salutatory effect. At the end of the day, the answer will involve better training and weeding out bad cops. While the victim above certainly needs and deserves compensation, I’m not sanguine about the effects of lawsuits on changing LE behavior. I don’t doubt that they have an effect: I doubt the effect is close to sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/762 "2015-02-11T00:32:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > From the story:The police department then added: “We decided to speak to him in a language that everyone understands, and that our cops are especially fluent in.” To be honest, I’m not sure if I understand spoken Oinkese either. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/763 "2015-02-11T01:10:57Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > At the end of the day, the answer will involve better training and weeding out bad cops. Probably not. The simple answer is to have a police force that arrests and imprisons cops who break the law. Slamming a 57 year old man down and injuring him is a crime. It’s exactly that the police do not fear, nor suffer arrest for violation of the very laws they enforce, that creates a situation where a man feels free to physically damage another person, with no fear of consequences. Unless police are also subject to the law, there will be no change. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/764 "2015-02-11T16:17:23Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Probably not. The simple answer is to have a police force that arrests and imprisons cops who break the law. Slamming a 57 year old man down and injuring him is a crime. It’s exactly that the police do not fear, nor suffer arrest for violation of the very laws they enforce, that creates a situation where a man feels free to physically damage another person, with no fear of consequences. > > Unless police are also subject to the law, there will be no change. What’s really needed is a special prosecutor in each state who would be in charge of prosecuting cases against police. The regular prosecutors rely on police testimony and assistance to obtain convictions, and if they were to take on the police, they’d be up a creek when it came time to prosecute cases where they needed police cooperation. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/765 "2015-02-11T17:48:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It’s even worse though. From the article: With those sort of demographics, the cop should have been very aware of the possibility of language barriers. > Here’s another proposal. Pass a law _with mild sentences_ for something like actions betraying the public trust while in figurative or actual uniform. Mild punishment is key: otherwise convictions will be harder. Criminology 101 says that deterrence is much more a result of swift sanction than heavy sanction. Even 2-12 months in the slammer might have a salutatory effect. > > At the end of the day, the answer will involve better training and weeding out bad cops. While the victim above certainly needs and deserves compensation, I’m not sanguine about the effects of lawsuits on changing LE behavior. I don’t doubt that they have an effect: I doubt the effect is close to sufficient. [NYC Police Officer indicted in shooting death](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/12/nyregion/officers-indictment-in-akai-gurleys-death-brings-little-solace-to-brooklyn-residents.html?hpw&rref=nyregion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0) In this case a frightened rookie NYC cop shot and killed a Brooklyn apartment dweller in a dark stairwell. Said it was accidental and I think I tend to agree with that. Case seems much less egregious than many, but the cop was Chinese-American so maybe that’s why he could be charged. (second degree manslaughter is the top charge) My guess is he’ll be convicted on one or two of the lesser charges. He drew his gun prior to entering the stairway without any evident danger. He’s clearly guilty of being reckless. He also admitted on the night of the shooting that it had been accidental. But apparently he had no evil intent or anger issues. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/766 "2015-02-11T17:49:35Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > But apparently he had no evil intent or anger issues. Negligence can be a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/767 "2015-02-12T22:18:05Z")
Pasco, Washington this time: [Video Apparently Shows Man with Hands Up Shot Dead by Washington Cops](https://news.vice.com/article/video-apparently-shows-man-with-hands-up-shot-dead-by-washington-cops) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/768 "2015-02-13T02:37:18Z")
[Video and 911 recording of Alabama cops assaulting the Indian guy mentioned upthread](http://www.waaytv.com/appnews/madison-officer-charged-with-assault-for-use-of-force-incident/article_7b09d144-b2fe-11e4-a0e4-b339eed5e1af.html). One of the officers has been fired and is charged with 3rd degree assault. The smile on my face went away when I learned this is just a misdemeanor. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/769 "2015-02-13T03:40:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > What’s really needed is a special prosecutor in each state who would be in charge of prosecuting cases against police. I find it hard to imagine a solution that doesn’t involve something like this. Cop corruption was curbed via the establishment of Internal Affairs. Speaking generally, oversight needs to be conducted by third parties. > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > [NYC Police Officer indicted in shooting death](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/12/nyregion/officers-indictment-in-akai-gurleys-death-brings-little-solace-to-brooklyn-residents.html?hpw&rref=nyregion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0) > > In this case a frightened rookie NYC cop shot and killed a Brooklyn apartment dweller in a dark stairwell. Said it was accidental and I think I tend to agree with that. … > > … He drew his gun prior to entering the stairway without any evident danger. He’s clearly guilty of being reckless. I had understood that NYC cops draw their weapon about once per day _and_ that quite of few nonetheless never fire their weapon during their career. So I can’t see how drawing the weapon is an issue. The article gave few details about the incident, so I can’t evaluate the degree of negligence other than saying the matter deserves investigation. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/770 "2015-02-13T04:06:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Negligence can be a crime. I read today that he also did not try to help the wounded man after he shot him. Instead, he called his police union representative. That’s certainly not “protect and serve”. I’ve never seen a NYC cop draw a gun. I have seen police in another state draw weapons when it appeared there might have been an ongoing break-in. Putting a hand on the butt of a gun when entering a dark stairwell might be prudent. Drawing the weapon great enhances the danger for all, including both cops. What if he fell in the dark? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/771 "2015-02-13T07:10:51Z")
[According to a guy on this forum](http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432377) cops can draw their weapon anywhere between 1-2 a month and many times a day, depending on neighborhood or whatever. [NYT](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/26/nyregion/for-new-york-city-officers-drawing-guns-is-based-on-discretion-not-rules.html): Some cops might draw their guns only a couple of times during their career. Other cops, those who patrol public housing complexes, draw their guns routinely. Apparently Officer Liang was in such a situation: the bullet went down a flight of stairs and struck an innocent person. LAPD manual, according to Joe Blow on an internet forum: “Unnecessarily or prematurely drawing or exhibiting a firearm limits an officer’s alternatives in controlling a situation, creates unnecessary anxiety on the part of citizens, and may result in an unwarranted or accidental discharge of the firearm. An officer’s decision to draw or exhibit a firearm should be based on the tactical situation and the officer’s reasonable belief there is a substantial risk that the situation may escalate to the point where deadly force may be justified. When an officer has determined that the use of deadly force is not necessary, the officer shall, as soon as practicable, secure or holster the firearm.” 2008 NYT article: It had nothing on the topic, but I thought I’d throw it in anyway. The NYPD has 36,000 officers. Shootings have declined. ```auto 1996 2006 Number of bullets fired by cops 1292 540 Number of times police opened fire 147 60 Killed by cops 30 13 -------------------------------------------------------- How often cops hit target (hit ratio): 34% ``` Discussion, low grade ore: [The Police Policy Studies Council](http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/Unholstered-Handgun.htm) ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/772 "2015-02-13T12:24:09Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I read today that he also did not try to help the wounded man after he shot him. Instead, he called his police union representative. That’s certainly not “protect and serve”. This should be grounds for firing by itself. His priorities are so screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/773 "2015-02-13T12:45:27Z")
The reason why the police were called against Patel is now pretty clear (Zimmerman wannbe). [ > [@](#): > > In a 911 call to police that day, the caller identifies Patel as “a skinny black guy” he had never seen before walking around the neighborhood. The caller also said that he was following Patel from a distance, and that he was afraid to leave for work and leave his wife alone at home. ]([Alabama Cop Arrested for Takedown That Left Indian Man Partially Paralyzed](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/alabama-cop-arrested-takedown-left-indian-man-partially-paralyzed-n305471)) ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/774 "2015-02-13T21:02:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I don’t know what to make of all this crap, except that methinks police work should have low job security. Generous pay, but low job security. Only issue with that is you need a good solid fair procedure for dismissing an officer. Police officers by design end up in alot of physical altercations in the process of arresting people and no two people resisting arrest are going to be exactly the same. Excessive force on one person might hardly phase another person for a variety of reasons. Part of why those police unions exist is because once upon a time it was too easy to simply terminate a cop who was involved in some kind of controversial incident. All emergency services encounter alot of messy grey areas and situations that are extremely difficult to manage. Cops also have the unfortunate aspect of their duty constantly trying to balance the public good, the rights of the suspect, proper interpretation of basic criminal laws to make proper arrests, and their own safety. Failing at any one of which can have unfortunate outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/775 "2015-02-13T21:46:35Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Part of why those police unions exist is because once upon a time it was too easy to simply terminate a cop who was involved in some kind of controversial incident. I find this… very hard to believe. As bad as things are now, they were only worse in the past, in terms of what cops could get away with. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/776 "2015-02-13T21:57:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Negligence can be a crime. I was gonna say … don’t always need evil motive or “intent” to be convicted of a criminal act. There is such a think as criminally negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter. If you’re a trained professional going down a dark stairwell (never mind that the trek was against orders), use a flashlight. You’re also kinda tasked as a cop to assess a situation and not be a skittish mofo with your weapon out the second you hear people in the stairwell, never mind (evidently) finger inside the trigger guard. That seems to fit the bill of negligent/involuntary homicide, unless NY law is strangely written. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/777 "2015-02-14T07:22:31Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Pasco, Washington this time: [Video Apparently Shows Man with Hands Up Shot Dead by Washington Cops](https://news.vice.com/article/video-apparently-shows-man-with-hands-up-shot-dead-by-washington-cops) There is now an inquest (translation: official whitewash procedure) being planned and the family of the deceased has filed a $25 million claim against the city of Pasco. [Cite](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/928352286ab84bb4a242209826406e78/criticism-increases-washington-state-police-shooting). ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/778 "2015-02-14T18:34:42Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I find this… very hard to believe. As bad as things are now, they were only worse in the past, in terms of what cops could get away with. That particular blade cuts both ways. Police department administration could get away with alot more blame shifting and or convenient loss of information that might place the scrutiny on questionable department policy as opposed to an individual officers judgement or actions. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/779 "2015-02-15T02:36:13Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I’ve never seen a NYC cop draw a gun. I have seen police in another state draw weapons when it appeared there might have been an ongoing break-in. > > Putting a hand on the butt of a gun when entering a dark stairwell might be prudent. Drawing the weapon great enhances the danger for all, including both cops. What if he fell in the dark? Today’s Times: [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/14/nyregion/in-police-shooting-of-akai-gurley-lack-of-threat-led-to-charges-against-officer.html?ref=todayspaper](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/14/nyregion/in-police-shooting-of-akai-gurley-lack-of-threat-led-to-charges-against-officer.html?ref=todayspaper) The criminal indictment stems from the absence of a claim that the cop felt his life was threatened, according to sources. Drawing the weapon was fine. But Officer Liang made 2 errors: he, “…disregarded his safety training by putting his finger on the trigger and pointing the gun ahead of him into the dark, even though there was no obvious threat.” Also, weapons issued by the NYPD have a, “New York trigger”, making them more difficult to fire. You need to squeeze the trigger harder. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/780 "2015-02-15T20:25:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Pasco, Washington this time: [Video Apparently Shows Man with Hands Up Shot Dead by Washington Cops](https://news.vice.com/article/video-apparently-shows-man-with-hands-up-shot-dead-by-washington-cops) You have an interesting definition of “hands up” if it includes “at waist level”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=40)