# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 406
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8102 "2016-04-19T17:13:13Z")
[Bystander Hooliganism](http://www.dnj.com/story/news/2016/04/17/parents-hobgood-students-handcuffed-sent-detention/83168196/) in Tennessee: > [@](#): > > MURFREESBORO – More than 150 people called for action Sunday after parents said at least five students, ages 6 to 10, were handcuffed at Hobgood Elementary School on Friday. > > The students were arrested, accused of not stopping a fight that happened earlier off-campus… > > Parents and community members sharply criticized the arrests of the students. They were taken into custody after they did not intervene in an incident that took place in their neighborhood, the parents said… > > A video was taken of the incident and officers later obtained arrest warrants for students who did not break up the disturbance… ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8103 "2016-04-19T20:35:11Z")
So…they were quite _literally_ arrested for doing nothing. What are they arrested for violating? If there a law in Tennessee that says I am required to intervene in a fight between other people if I am close by? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8104 "2016-04-20T13:24:24Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > So…they were quite _literally_ arrested for doing nothing. > > What are they arrested for violating? If there a law in Tennessee that says I am required to intervene in a fight between other people if I am close by? Seinfeld is still doing jail time for this very thing. I hear Costanza cut a deal though. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8105 "2016-04-20T14:32:52Z")
I found another story that says the children were charged with “criminal responsibility for an illegal act.” This sounds as if the claim is that they were involved in some kind of conspiracy to organize or incite the fight. Or that maybe a bunch of kids were standing around the periphery shouting stuff like “hit him!” It’s a real stretch to claim something like this is criminal, but at least the legal basis is something better than “failure to intervene on someone else’s fight.” Also, there appears to be as much outrage over the location of the arrests – at a school – as at the arrests themselves. This part I don’t buy. If I’m a cop and I know that my, er, suspects, were all going to be together at one place, that’s where I would go to arrest them. To me the location makes no difference at all so long as there is a legal basis for the cop to be there and the arrest to be made. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8106 "2016-04-20T14:44:50Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > So…they were quite _literally_ arrested for doing nothing. While black, one presumes. [QUOTE=BoyoJim] Also, there appears to be as much outrage over the location of the arrests – at a school – as at the arrests themselves. This part I don’t buy. If I’m a cop and I know that my, er, suspects, were all going to be together at one place, that’s where I would go to arrest them. To me the location makes no difference at all so long as there is a legal basis for the cop to be there and the arrest to be made. [/QUOTE] Unless the officers had any reason to believe those “suspects” were any danger to their classmates or teachers, they could have spared them the public humiliation and waited until end of day, or picked them up at home. Getting arrested is already freak-out worthy enough when you’re a kid, getting arrested in front of the people you spend more time with than your actual family and who also happen to be a bunch of evil, cruel little jerks makes it so much worse. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8107 "2016-04-21T05:24:18Z")
[A white man was ruthlessly slain by police on Friday](http://www.walb.com/story/31756492/more-details-released-on-man-killed-in-dooly-co-standoff) > [@](#): > > Harper shot multiple rounds at officers before walking back inside his home. > > Agents confirm they fired a round at Harper before a gunshot was heard inside the home. > > Agents sent a robot inside and discovered Harper was dead. Oh, wait … The story says he called himself an “Imperial Wizard” of the Knights of something-or-the-other. So it looks like the police never actually take serious action against those types. Or maybe they just scared him to death. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8108 "2016-04-23T19:04:44Z")
Not exactly current or immediately shocking, but there is a tl;dr article on Raw Story that starts out as a little thing about the disappearance/death in Malibu of one Mitrice Richardson (a black woman, naturally) that descends into [complete indictment of the LA County Sheriff’s department](http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/secrecy-still-shrouds-la-county-sheriffs-department-after-death-of-black-woman-released-in-dark-of-night/). The LASD appears to be a front for gangland mischief, some of its members coalescing into white-pride groups, all of the various gangs acting with a total above-the-law attitude. One of the most disturbing statements comes late in the article, > [@](#): > > In seeming defiance of the negative press surrounding the LASD, [Sheriff Leroy “Lee”] Baca was honored with the 2013 Sheriff of the Year award by the National Sheriffs’ Association. Several months after that, the Department of Justice indicted 18 deputies. This would suggest to me that the county sheriffs around the country feel as though this sort of behavior is appropriate and normal for an average sheriffs department. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8109 "2016-04-23T23:17:50Z")
…I don’t think this one has been posted, but if it has my apologies. Cops Taunted Black Veteran as He Died > **[Cops Taunted Black Veteran as He Died](https://www.thedailybeast.com/cops-taunted-black-veteran-as-he-died)** > > As Elliott Williams lay on the jail floor, paralyzed and begging for help, staff dropped water beyond his reach and accused him of faking an injury, a lawsuit claims. > [@](#): > > Elliott Williams spent the last five days of his life in a Tulsa County jail, paralyzed and lying on the cold concrete floor. But despite the 37-year-old Oklahoma man’s pleas for help, guards did nothing to save him, a lawsuit claims. > > At one point, jailers dumped Williams’s limp body into a shower and left him there for an hour. The dying inmate “would not stand up but we did give him a shower anyway,” a captain later testified, according to a sheriff’s office internal report. > [@](#): > > “This guy went almost six days and never got taken to the hospital with a broken neck,” Daniel Smolen, an attorney for Williams’s family, told The Daily Beast. “They’re throwing food at him and making fun of him in the cell while he’s going through a horrific death. You wouldn’t do that to an animal or any living thing.” > [@](#): > > When Williams was rolled to the medical unit’s shower, one nurse told him he should be “ashamed” of his behavior and to “quit faking.” She also told him to get his “nasty ass” in the shower, court documents say. > > Jail supervisors tried to get Williams into the shower but he couldn’t move. One sergeant then dumped Williams off the gurney, a two- to three-foot fall, and the cops tore his pants off and removed his shirt. Yes there is video. No, don’t watch it. ☹ In their defense, the Sheriff Department said: > [@](#): > > “Despite medical staff’s incorrect diagnoses of Mr. Williams before his death, the undisputed evidence is that the medical professionals who examined and treated Mr. Williams sincerely believed he was faking paralysis,” Brewster wrote. This is the same Sheriff’s office where the “Pay to Play” sheriff used his gun instead of his taser. The “Fuck your breath” case. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8110 "2016-04-25T19:20:29Z")
Another Oklahoma incident: [How police took $53,000 from a Christian band, an orphanage and a church](How police took $53,000 from a Christian band, an orphanage and a church) Sheriff’s deputies pull over manager for a Burmese Christian band touring the US. Guess those Asians weren’t their kinda of Christians. This pretty much sums up civil forfeiture: > [@](#): > > Under civil forfeiture, the burden of proof is on the property owner to prove their innocence to get their stuff back. This turns the common criminal-law principle on its head: When it comes to civil forfeiture, you are guilty until proven innocent. Nice, after pulling him over for a broken tail light: > [@](#): > > The officers ended up taking all of the money — all $53,249 of it. “Possession of drug proceeds,” the property receipt reads. But they let Eh Wah go. They didn’t charge him with a crime that night, instead sending him back on the road about 12:30 a.m., with the broken tail light. > [@](#): > > Oklahoma has some of the most permissive forfeiture laws in the nation, according to a 2015 report by the Institute for Justice, a civil liberties law firm. The group gave the state a D-minus on its civil forfeiture laws, citing no conviction required to forfeit, poor protections for innocent property owners and a statute that allows up to 100 percent of forfeiture proceeds to go directly back to law enforcement, creating a possible profit motive. Nawh, there couldn’t be a profit motive here. Tellingly: > [@](#): > > In an interview, Eh Wah’s attorney, Dan Alban, noted that while the deputies took all of the cash, they left Eh Wah a check written out to him for $300 from a family friend. > > “If they really thought these were drug proceeds and they thought he was a drug trafficker, why would they give back a check that they thought was drug proceeds?” Alban asked. But, he said, “if the real purpose of the stop was to increase revenue, there’s no point in keeping the check because they can’t cash the check.” ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8111 "2016-04-25T19:56:09Z")
Civil asset forfeiture, at least as it’s currently carried out by so many law enforcement agencies, is one of the biggest disgraces in the American justice system. It’s nothing but legalized corruption. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8112 "2016-04-25T20:03:32Z")
If an officer asks me if I have money on me, I might tell him “yeah, fifty bucks”. People do not seem to realize that they are not under oath while speaking to the police. I would also make sure my big wad of cash is _on my person_, not somewhere they can find it searching the car. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8113 "2016-04-25T21:20:26Z")
Have these types of laws been put to the test in the Supreme Court? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8114 "2016-04-25T21:53:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Civil asset forfeiture, at least as it’s currently carried out by so many law enforcement agencies, is one of the biggest disgraces in the American justice system. It’s nothing but legalized corruption. Actually it’s worse - you gotta be at least marginally successful financially before you opt to corrupt someone or something. It’s more like legalized mugging. But hey, as the Patrician would say : since you’re gonna have muggings anyway, might as well give it a legal framework ! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8115 "2016-04-25T22:43:46Z")
Apparently, becoming part of a national news story at least has a sort of shaming effect. > [@](#): > > Muskogee County, Ok. district attorney Orvil Loge told Gawker this afternoon that prosecutors will return $53,234 in seized assets to Eh Wah, a man who was pulled over in February while carrying the cash for a Burmese Christian rock band. Loge said his office also dropped a felony criminal charge against Eh Wah, who had been accused of “acquiring proceeds from drug activity.” [Link](http://gawker.com/update-oklahoma-da-will-return-seized-cash-to-burmese-1772984668) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8116 "2016-04-26T05:29:44Z")
Part of the problem seems to be that they charged him with a crime. In many of these forfeiture cases, no arrest is made nor charges filed, which makes it much harder for the victim to get the money back. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8117 "2016-04-26T13:35:40Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Apparently, becoming part of a national news story at least has a sort of shaming effect. [Link](http://gawker.com/update-oklahoma-da-will-return-seized-cash-to-burmese-1772984668) I like how the DA put it: > [@](#): > > But after reviewing the particulars of the case this morning, Loge said, he came to believe he could not meet the burden of proof in Loge’s criminal case or in the civil forfeiture case. “I had to do what’s right, and that’s to return the money to him and his attorneys,” Loge said. I read this like he wanted to say: “Oh! But if I could have sustained any kind of bullshit charge, without any of his lawyers looking at it, I sure as hell would have charged him and taken his money!” Maybe that just the cynic in me. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8118 "2016-04-26T16:22:24Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I like how the DA put it: > I read this like he wanted to say: “Oh! But if I could have sustained any kind of bullshit charge, without any of his lawyers looking at it, I sure as hell would have charged him and taken his money!” > > Maybe that just the cynic in me. I wonder how much the attorneys kept and if they were local. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8119 "2016-04-26T17:10:27Z")
It boggles my mind that nobody has successfully challenged civil forfeiture laws on fourth amendment grounds. Do the police just drop the case if the victim gets a good lawyer or something? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8120 "2016-04-26T17:13:17Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > It boggles my mind that nobody has successfully challenged civil forfeiture laws on fourth amendment grounds. Do the police just drop the case if the victim gets a good lawyer or something? It’s a good question – how far up the chain of courts have these laws been sustained? Have the Supremes ruled on any of them? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8121 "2016-04-26T17:59:29Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I wonder how much the attorneys kept and if they were local. I think the term “_pro bono_” appears in the article. > [@Rysto](#): > > It boggles my mind that nobody has successfully challenged civil forfeiture laws on fourth amendment grounds. Do the police just drop the case if the victim gets a good lawyer or something? Actually, the 5th is the one that says “…_nor shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process/… just compensation_.” The rights of the accused are well-protected by the Constitution – but if you are never accused, you have to fight hard to keep those rights. It is an (un)ethical grey area. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=405) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=407)