# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 411
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8202 "2016-05-16T16:38:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Funny how the business I work at detains (often with physical force) shoplifters trying to leave our property over a dozen times a day and not once have the cops laughed at us or asked if the shoplifter wanted to press charges, nor have our asses been sued. A difference between shoplifting and trespassing. We detained people for actual property crimes and held them for police. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8203 "2016-05-16T16:39:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And since morality is not objective, your notion of morality has exactly as much validity as ISIS’ does. To a broken person like you, perhaps, but not to others. > [@](#): > > Authority can be challenged without engaging in criminal activity or violent revolution. Every successful challenge to authority that improved society has involved some level of disobedience of authority. In your system, disobedience of authority is impossible, and thus no challenges to authority can succeed. > [@](#): > > How could I possibly support your system when it _has_ resulted in such catastrophic and continuous suffering when it was applied in any society in human history? My system is responsible for every single improvement in society, while your system would make such improvements impossible. My system is not perfect – no system is – but at least in my system improvement is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8204 "2016-05-16T16:40:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Dismissing a charge is not the same as being found not guilty. It is if rule of law applies. Remember innocent unless proven guilty? Do you remember that? Does it apply here? I think it does. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8205 "2016-05-16T16:44:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [From a less biased source;](http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/teen-sues-tacoma-police-officer-others-over-brutalizing-her-in-mall-parking-lot/) Since the “quote” function doesn’t pick up quotes-within-quotes, I’ll grab it direct from the article. > [@](#): > > Williams, who was working off-duty for mall security at the time, told Tillman that she was causing a disturbance and was going to be “trespassed,” or banned, from the mall and could be arrested if she were to return, according to the suit. > > As the officer appears to take a notebook from his chest pocket, Tillman can be seen in the video trying to pedal away. Oh, dear me. I seem to have scooped up and included a paragraph which you omitted for some reason – perhaps because it completely ruins your argument by establishing that “arrest” was a hypothetical future possibility that might occur if she returned, and that there was no arrest (and hence no possibility, even theoretically, of resistance to same) currently in effect. > [@](#): > > I’ve come to the conclusion that she attempted to flee and was resisting arrest. Yes, and there are people out there who have come to the conclusion that Adolf Hitler’s living brain is preserved in a jar of Granny’s Peach Tea. This conclusion is equally unsupported by fact. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8206 "2016-05-16T16:53:46Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I hope she/her family persue this and end up with a big payday. > > A philanthropist fronting legal fees for people abused by “LEOs” would be a wonderful thing. Actually, the Invisible Hand is exerting salutary forces in the direction of justice and giving the Invisible Finger to abusive police departments: > [@](#): > > [Cops can ignore Black Lives Matter protesters. They can’t ignore their insurers](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cops-can-ignore-black-lives-matter-protesters-they-cant-ignore-their-insurers/2016/05/04/c823334a-01cb-11e6-9d36-33d198ea26c5_story.html) > > In 2010, the police department in Rutledge, Tenn., was riven by scandal. The police chief, a 12-year department veteran, had been charged with assault and was under investigation by state authorities. But that wasn’t what Mayor Danny Turley cited when he fired the top cop that year. Turley “had no choice,” he said — his “hands were tied” — because the city could have lost its liability insurance if the chief kept his job. That would have left Rutledge responsible for paying out on future lawsuits, potentially crippling its small budget. So the insurance company got its way, and a police officer got an early retirement… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8207 "2016-05-16T16:57:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every successful challenge to authority that improved society has involved some level of disobedience of authority. In your system, disobedience of authority is impossible, and thus no challenges to authority can succeed. In my system, disobedience of authority is _unnecessary_, because it will be possible to enact positive social changes without resistance. Lack of public respect for law and order is the root _cause_ of the problems you want to solve, not its solution. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8208 "2016-05-16T16:59:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “Unjust authority” is an oxymoron. Ah, standard programming: [QUOTE=Isaac Asimov] “What is your definition of justice?” “Justice, Elijah, is that which exists when all the laws are enforced.” Fastolfe nodded. “A good definition, Mr. Baley, for a robot. The desire to see all laws enforced has been built into R. Daneel, now. Justice is a very concrete term to him since it is based on law enforcement, which is in turn based upon the existence of specific and definite laws. There is nothing abstract about it. A human being can recognize the fact that, on the basis of an abstract moral code, some laws may be bad ones and their enforcement unjust. What do you say, R. Daneel?” “An unjust law,” said R. Daneel evenly, “is a contradiction in terms.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8209 "2016-05-16T17:04:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Dismissing a charge is not the same as being found not guilty. Indeed not. Someone can be found not guilty if they probably are guilty, but the evidence fails by thaaaat much to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Immediate dismissal of charges as soon as the case reaches a judge is a finding that the accusation is without merit and that the arresting officer ought to go find another brain cell so that the one he already has doesn’t die of loneliness. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8210 "2016-05-16T17:04:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In my system, disobedience of authority is _unnecessary_, because it will be possible to enact positive social changes without resistance. Sounds like a fantasy magical system that has nothing to do with real humans or the real world. > [@](#): > > Lack of public respect for law and order is the root _cause_ of the problems you want to solve, not its solution. No it’s not – it wasn’t the cause of slavery, nor the cause of Jim Crow, nor segregation, nor anti-gay laws, nor the cause of police brutality, nor the cause of disparate treatment by the justice system, nor the cause of Redlining, nor the cause of so many other instances of injustice throughout American history. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8211 "2016-05-16T17:22:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not – it wasn’t the cause of slavery, nor the cause of Jim Crow, nor segregation, nor anti-gay laws, nor the cause of police brutality, nor the cause of disparate treatment by the justice system, nor the cause of Redlining, nor the cause of so many other instances of injustice throughout American history. All of those wrongs were righted peacefully through legislative and judicial action. It was those who believed themselves “moral and decent people”, who were doing what they “knew” was right, that relied upon revolution, violence, intimidation, terror, and crime to maintain the practices. > [@](#): > > Sounds like a fantasy magical system that has nothing to do with real humans or the real world. Why do bad laws exist? Because the people elect bad lawmakers. Why do bad lawmakers get elected? Because too many right-thinking people don’t vote, and too many people who do vote are misinformed about what’s in their best interests. Why do people not vote or vote ignorantly? _Because they have not been properly indoctrinated to respect the state and their fellow citizens._ When this respect exists, then the people will elect lawmakers who will act in their best interest, and laws favoring positive social change will be adopted as a natural result thereof, and at the same time it will be unnecessary for the police to use force to uphold the law because the people will not act with disregard for it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8212 "2016-05-16T17:33:32Z")
Got anything to say about the girl who was assaulted by the rent-a-cop for resisting a non-existent arrest? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8213 "2016-05-16T17:58:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All of those wrongs were righted peacefully through legislative and judicial action. It was those who believed themselves “moral and decent people”, who were doing what they “knew” was right, that relied upon revolution, violence, intimidation, terror, and crime to maintain the practices. Such legislative or judicial action was only possible because of past disobedience – slaves escaping from slavery (and being helped by non-slaves); Civil Rights protesters disobeying unjust laws publicly and being punished for it; etc. The political will to make these things happen would not have been possible without disobeying the unjust authorities. Civil disobedience by MLK Jr. and other Civil Rights leaders showed the public how unjust those laws were for black people. Without that civil disobedience, the political actions of Civil Rights would never have been possible. > [@](#): > > Why do bad laws exist? Because the people elect bad lawmakers. > > Why do bad lawmakers get elected? Because too many right-thinking people don’t vote, and too many people who do vote are misinformed about what’s in their best interests. > > Why do people not vote or vote ignorantly? _Because they have not been properly indoctrinated to respect the state and their fellow citizens._ > > When this respect exists, then the people will elect lawmakers who will act in their best interest, and laws favoring positive social change will be adopted as a natural result thereof, and at the same time it will be unnecessary for the police to use force to uphold the law because the people will not act with disregard for it. More magical fantasy-land stuff with no relation to actual history or actual human behavior. Most of this is false (or, at best, only telling a tiny part of the story). Again, I don’t expect broken, partially-functioning humans like yourself to understand. The best you can do, and I hope you do this someday, is accept that your understanding of morality, history, and human behavior regarding authority is entirely out of whack, and stop trusting your own beliefs and instincts. As you are now, at least according to your posts, you make the perfect citizen for monstrous government regimes like the Nazis, and a terrible neighbor and fellow human if any of your neighbors (or fellow humans) are mistreated by authority. Since there has never been a time in human history in which there weren’t some humans who weren’t being mistreated by authority, that makes you a terrible neighbor and fellow human no matter at what time period, or what location, you could exist. It is right to stand up with and for those who are mistreated by authority, and sometimes the only way to change something for the good is to disobey authority. Your approach means that those being raped and brutalized by authorities _must comply with their own rape and brutalization_. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8214 "2016-05-16T18:12:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In my system, disobedience of authority is _unnecessary_, because it will be possible to enact positive social changes without resistance. Lack of public respect for law and order is the root _cause_ of the problems you want to solve, not its solution. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds like a good plan, but what do you do with the one-tenth of one-persent who turn into psycho zombies instead of properly obedient citizens? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8215 "2016-05-16T18:16:36Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds like a good plan, but what do you do with the one-tenth of one-persent who turn into psycho zombies instead of properly obedient citizens? You don’t have to worry about them – **Smapti** ’s friendly authority accidentally murdered the entire planet they came from and erased the planet’s existence from records, so no one knows how they became that way. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8216 "2016-05-16T18:20:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > When this respect exists, then the people will elect lawmakers who will act in their best interest, and laws favoring positive social change will be adopted as a natural result thereof, and at the same time it will be unnecessary for the police to use force to uphold the law because the people will not act with disregard for it. I think the appropriate political philosophy for you is libertarianism (In the sense that you can all be deluded fuctards together, and talk about how great things would be if only people behaved the way you wished they’d behave). Anyway, about that girl you accused of crimes in contravention of the rule of law, because you cynically concluded it would benefit you to ignore the rule of law to win an internet argument… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8217 "2016-05-16T18:21:21Z")
Now that I think about it, **Steve MB** , the character “the Operative” from “Serenity” is almost the perfectly distilled essence of **Smapti** ’s philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8218 "2016-05-16T18:23:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got anything to say about the girl who was assaulted by the rent-a-cop for resisting a non-existent arrest? She shouldn’t have resisted. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I think the appropriate political philosophy for you is libertarianism (In the sense that you can all be deluded fuctards together, and talk about how great things would be if only people behaved the way you wished they’d behave). I consider myself a non-revolutionary socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8219 "2016-05-16T18:24:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > She shouldn’t have resisted. She didn’t resist, moron. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8220 "2016-05-16T18:28:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > She shouldn’t have resisted. Resisted _what_, moron? They couldn’t legally detain her. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8221 "2016-05-16T18:28:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I consider myself a non-revolutionary socialist. Add it to the list of things you’re wrong about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=410) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=412)