# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 418
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8342 "2016-07-07T00:54:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I guess overcrowding in prisons means we need to give white-skinned rapists short sentences to save room for black thugs who sell cigarettes, or fail to signal turns. Nah, they don’t take up room for very long. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8343 "2016-07-07T01:01:20Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > There’s a middle ground, where the shooting is neither justified nor murder. This is based on a summary of the events in the video–I don’t have the stomach for that kind of violence, I’m ashamed to admit, so I can’t say I saw the vid myself. There’s no way to confirm this is the case short of a months-long investigation. But it’s _plausible_, and it’s important to remember that not all human tragedies have to have a good guy and a bad guy. The version of events is roughly as follows: > > Cop A says “Gun!” > > What Cop A means is “I see the gun he was reported as having, it’s in his coat pocket.” > > What Cop B hears is “Your about to get shot, open fire!” > > Cop B opens fire. I’ve watched it from the two angles that are out there, just to fill in for anyone who won’t (or can’t) watch: The cops wrestle him to the ground from a standing (but pushed over the hood of a vehicle) position, during which he is tasered. They then wrestle with him and are able to get him on his back, one officer appears to have immobilized his left arm such that he could do nothing with it. While in this position, his right arm isn’t clearly shown from either angle. It looks like it “could” be pinned under his own body, but again, isn’t clear. One officer yells gun, and you also hear a panicked yell that is semi-unintelligible that sounds like “he’s going for the gun” (but you cannot clearly see the right side of the suspect’s body and one of the cops is largely obscured by the other. At this point they both have guns drawn, fire multiple times into him and he dies. There’s certainly no “red flag” moment where it’s obvious to me, he was going for his gun. But because one half of his body isn’t really seen in either angle I’ve watched, I’d say it’s at least “possible” he was pulling a gun with his right hand. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8344 "2016-07-07T01:09:31Z")
Who goes for his gun while several officers are pointing theirs at them, and while at least one is sitting on top of you, pinning you down? I’m trying to picture a scenario were it wouldn’t have taken the guy a minute, just to dig into his pocket, and another to actually pull it out. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8345 "2016-07-07T02:02:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ve watched it from the two angles that are out there, just to fill in for anyone who won’t (or can’t) watch: > > The cops wrestle him to the ground from a standing (but pushed over the hood of a vehicle) position, during which he is tasered. They then wrestle with him and are able to get him on his back, one officer appears to have immobilized his left arm such that he could do nothing with it. While in this position, his right arm isn’t clearly shown from either angle. It looks like it “could” be pinned under his own body, but again, isn’t clear. One officer yells gun, and you also hear a panicked yell that is semi-unintelligible that sounds like “he’s going for the gun” (but you cannot clearly see the right side of the suspect’s body and one of the cops is largely obscured by the other. At this point they both have guns drawn, fire multiple times into him and he dies. > > There’s certainly no “red flag” moment where it’s obvious to me, he was going for his gun. But because one half of his body isn’t really seen in either angle I’ve watched, I’d say it’s at least “possible” he was pulling a gun with his right hand. It’s a little unclear from your first sentence that he is tasered and then wrestled to the ground. The tasered man was tackled, thrown over a car, and knelt on by two policemen. Later in the video they pull a gun from Alton’s pocket. Interestingly, one of the officers was involved in another fatal shooting. I wonder how many decent cops face that situation repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8346 "2016-07-07T02:14:07Z")
It’s not unclear from what I’ve said, I intentionally used the most neutral terms possible because I was trying to relay the events of the video for someone who wasn’t comfortable seeing a violent film, not in presenting a certain narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8347 "2016-07-07T03:49:26Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s not unclear from what I’ve said, I intentionally used the most neutral terms possible because I was trying to relay the events of the video for someone who wasn’t comfortable seeing a violent film, not in presenting a certain narrative. I wanted to clarify how you presented the sequence of events. I wanted to make sure it was clear a gun was pulled from Alton Sterling’s pocket while he died. These are important details, presented neutrally, presented with no more violence then you conveyed, and they do not service a particular narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8348 "2016-07-07T06:01:36Z")
Falcon Heights police shoot man in passenger seat of car; girlfriend and child unhurt. The ma shot died later at a hospital. Everything from moments after the shooting happened were broadcast live on Facebook. > **[WATCH: Falcon Heights, Minnesota Police Shooting Facebook Live Video ...](https://heavy.com/news/2016/07/falcon-heights-minnesota-police-shooting-lavish-reynolds-facebook-live-video-watch-uncensored-shooting-youtube-shot-by-police/)** > > Lavish Reynolds posted this Facebook Live video of her boyfriend being shot by a police officer in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8349 "2016-07-07T12:13:21Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Falcon Heights police shoot man in passenger seat of car; girlfriend and child unhurt. The ma shot died later at a hospital. Everything from moments after the shooting happened were broadcast live on Facebook. > > [WATCH: Falcon Heights, Minnesota Police Shooting Facebook Live Video](http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/falcon-heights-minnesota-police-shooting-lavish-reynolds-facebook-live-video-watch-uncensored-shooting-youtube-shot-by-police/) That is more traumatizing then most horror movies I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8350 "2016-07-07T13:36:44Z")
So weird. This guy points a shotgun at passing drivers. Threatens cops with it when they approach, then pulls a handgun and fires at them. Arrested without injury. > **[Sheriff: Man pointed shotgun at drivers, fired at Wake deputy](https://www.wral.com/man-charged-with-shooting-at-wake-deputy/15832777/)** > > A Raleigh man was charged Tuesday with firing a shot at a Wake County deputy during a confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8351 "2016-07-07T13:49:42Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Who goes for his gun while several officers are pointing theirs at them, and while at least one is sitting on top of you, pinning you down? > > I’m trying to picture a scenario were it wouldn’t have taken the guy a minute, just to dig into his pocket, and another to actually pull it out. To be fair, he really doesn’t need to take it out if he can aim it sufficiently from within his pocket. (Note: I haven’t watched the video) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8352 "2016-07-07T14:13:32Z")
> [@C3](#): > > So weird. This guy points a shotgun at passing drivers. Threatens cops with it when they approach, then pulls a handgun and fires at them. Arrested without injury. > > [Sheriff: Man pointed shotgun at drivers, fired at Wake deputy](http://www.wral.com/man-charged-with-shooting-at-wake-deputy/15832777/) White guy, coincidentally. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8353 "2016-07-07T16:15:41Z")
In that case I think the cop literally had no time to shoot the white guy with the shotgun/pistol. He had to grab the shotgun to keep from being shot by it and the next thing he knows he’s having to grab the pistol coming from the other hand. That guy was definitely asking to get shot, fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8354 "2016-07-07T17:05:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In that case I think the cop literally had no time to shoot the white guy with the shotgun/pistol. He had to grab the shotgun to keep from being shot by it and the next thing he knows he’s having to grab the pistol coming from the other hand. > > That guy was definitely asking to get shot, fwiw. Why didn’t they just pull up and start shooting, like they did with Tamir Rice? We know, based on the justifications put forth on this board and the ultimate legal ruling on that case, that would have been perfectly reasonable, even if they had only suspected a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8355 "2016-07-07T17:16:15Z")
So your complaint is that the police _didn’t_ shoot him without trying non-lethal tactics first? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8356 "2016-07-07T17:16:20Z")
> [@C3](#): > > Why didn’t they just pull up and start shooting, like they did with Tamir Rice? We know, based on the justifications put forth on this board and the ultimate legal ruling on that case, that would have been perfectly reasonable, even if they had only suspected a gun. Well it’s legal for me to get drunk at work and pass out, but it’s not wise. Cleveland paid out $6m to the family of Tamir Rice, and while quick research is unclear on whatever happened to officer Loehmann who shot Tamir, the last I heard he was under an “administrative review”, so it seems likely he could lose his job. Also, he previously had a job in Independence, Ohio where the police department noted he was unfit to be a police officer and were moving to fire him. He resigned instead. When Cleveland hired him they declined to bother reviewing his personnel file from Independence. With that in mind I’m not sure it’s not obvious why someone wouldn’t emulate an unfit cop who was pushed out of one job, potentially will be fired from another, and cost his employer $6m. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8357 "2016-07-07T17:30:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So your complaint is that the police _didn’t_ shoot him without trying non-lethal tactics first? More an observation that an adult white man with multiple real guns gets taken into custody while an African American kid with a toy gun gets shot dead before the squad car comes to a complete stop. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8358 "2016-07-07T17:32:19Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > More an observation that an adult white man with multiple real guns gets taken into custody while an African American kid with a toy gun gets shot dead before the squad car comes to a complete stop. I mean blacks are far more likely than whites to die at police hands, I think they’re something like 35% of police shooting victims versus 12-13% of the population. But the majority of people killed by police are white people, so it isn’t like cops never shoot whites, either. I don’t think we can meaningfully compare anecdotal level data to try to make broader explanations. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8359 "2016-07-07T18:00:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So your complaint is that the police _didn’t_ shoot him without trying non-lethal tactics first? No, I’m being sarcastic. I think it’s appalling that thousands of words are expended on convoluted justifications on this board when an unarmed black man gets killed by the police, when police are obviously capable of handling these incidents differently. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8360 "2016-07-07T18:00:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Let me get this straight- if the Secret Service sees a guy brandishing a gun in the process of entering the White House grounds, they can shoot him once, subdue him, and he lives. A guy selling CDs on the sidewalk has a gun in his pants and if he so much as puts his hands near his waist, it’s time to shoot him many times and kill him. Why do they have to go batshit crazy and empty their guns? Although I cringe at agreeing with **BobLibDem** on something, I do think this bears repeating: > [@](#): > > … Why do they have to go batshit crazy and empty their guns? Now, **Martin Hyde** does a good job of explaining why this happens: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Eh, it’s training to fire multiple rounds like that. It’s not really that reasonable to expect most people to be trained to “only shoot as many times as necessary”, since “necessary” is unknown and uncertain. Since the only time you should shoot someone is if there’s a point where it’s justifiable to kill them, the reality is trying to “less lethally” shoot someone just isn’t feasible. > > That’s why in determining if something is right/wrong we have to look at whether the act of shooting was justified, not how many shots were fired. I understand that it is their training. I just have to question if this is the training we want our police to receive? Yeah, I understand they are trained to believe it is not really that reasonable to expect most people to be trained to “only shoot as many times as necessary”, but, you know, they don’t have to be trained to think like that. Why not train them to not engage someone who may be armed (which, of course, is anyone) if they are not an active threat? Time after time, we see the police killing someone when there is no active threat? Yeah, I know, they are trained not to wait until an active threat develops, but why? In this case, the police had superior numbers (two to one) and superior force. Why wasn’t that enough? Now, I am not saying the guy selling CDs had done no wrong, I suspect he had. However, there has to be ways of handling such situations without resorting to multiple gunshot wounds to the chest. Why can’t we train our police in those methods instead of the “dead men tell no tales” methods. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8361 "2016-07-07T18:43:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So your complaint is that the police _didn’t_ shoot him without trying non-lethal tactics first? Yes. I think the police should shoot everyone with a gun, no questions asked. At least that would be consistent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=417) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=419)