# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/841 "2015-03-03T06:21:26Z")
You wanna throw in a couple “sheeple” references while you’re at it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/842 "2015-03-03T06:52:03Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Would you like to guess how many people got shot by the cops in the UK last year, or Germany, or France, or Denmark, or Sweden, etc., versus the US? That’s because people here aren’t walking around armed much of the time, so the police aren’t facing a potentially lethal threat with every encounter. Also, far fewer people here have the attitude that the cops are the enemy, not the people protecting you from the enemy. Don’t want to get shot? Don’t provoke the guy with the gun. That applies to both “sides”. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/843 "2015-03-03T11:17:23Z")
[Holy. Fucking. Shit.](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/02/son-deceased) Sample: > [@](#): > > The department accepted officers from other police forces, even if they had been disciplined or fired, and it sometimes waived the psychological exam. Steve Tate, the director of training at the Albuquerque Police Academy, said that, after the hiring push, he noticed new cadets “exhibiting some characteristics that I thought were a little strange.” “They were not in charge of their emotions,” he told me. “People were breaking down into tears.” He spoke with the head of the department’s psychological unit, and asked why so many officers seemed psychologically unstable. “I could pick up a sense of worry from her,” he said. “She described to me feeling as though they were strong-armed into seating people that they didn’t feel were ready.” Peter DiVasto, a contract psychologist for the department, said in a deposition that psychologists felt that they were supposed to “err on the side of acceptance.” He testified that “deputy chiefs had been threatened with firing unless those numbers went up.” > > At meetings with the police chief and his deputies, Tate said he pleaded to reject applicants who seemed erratic. He said that a “common phrase was ‘Well, we got seats open, so let’s give them a try.’ ” The department began accepting candidates whose “backgrounds were so bad it was just, like, wow,” he said. There were cadets who had admitted to crimes and had been repeatedly disciplined in previous jobs. Of the sixty-three officers who joined the Albuquerque police force in 2007, ten eventually shot people. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/844 "2015-03-03T14:13:11Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Presenting overwhelming force is the point. Submit to the authority of our legal system under the implied (or real) threat of lethal force. This situation with LAPD was not a non violent situation escalated by presentation of lethal force, he was already violent This guy was fighting hard with the cops, his best case scenario was going to be getting tasered to the point of medium well. I’m not sure if this is satire or if you’re serious. Presenting overwhelming force is _not_ the point, or at least it shouldn’t be. All we want is compliance with the law, regardless of whether we get that with gentle persuasion or batons and bullets. You keep focusing on what happened after the homeless guy allegedly laid his hands on an officer’s weapon, but the question is, how did the police handle the encounter _up to_ that point? How did they approach an unarmed homeless person and then a few minutes later get to the point where he was grappling for their gun? Was his death worth whatever petty crime they were going to arrest him for? Were their tactics the best fit for the situation? Did they escalate the level of violence with their presence? Even if you don’t value the life of this guy, police shootings are _expensive_. More often than not the officers involved are placed on paid leave, lawyers get to rack up the hours, there are panels to determine whether the shooting was justified… the city would probably have saved money if they’d blocked off the street and called in mental health counselors to talk to this guy for the rest of the afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/845 "2015-03-03T16:09:51Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You keep focusing on what happened after the homeless guy allegedly laid his hands on an officer’s weapon, but the question is, how did the police handle the encounter _up to_ that point? How did they approach an unarmed homeless person and then a few minutes later get to the point where he was grappling for their gun? Was his death worth whatever petty crime they were going to arrest him for? Did you read the article? The police were not the aggressors. They were speaking peacefully to the man when _he initiated physical violence against them_. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/846 "2015-03-03T16:22:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Did you read the article? The police were not the aggressors. They were speaking peacefully to the man when _he initiated physical violence against them_. > [@](#): > > When officers arrived, they tried to speak to the suspect. > > He turned and jumped into his tent, and officers appeared to pull it up and over him to try to roust him from inside. The man jumped out flailing and kicking before ending up on the ground. Trying to shake someone out of their own tent is “speaking peacefully?” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/847 "2015-03-03T16:55:32Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Trying to shake someone out of their own tent is “speaking peacefully?” Trying to speak to the suspect is speaking peacefully. They’re not the ones that chose to escalate the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/848 "2015-03-03T16:56:48Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Does it take an engraved invitation to wake up to actually wake you people up? Visit [copblock.org](http://copblock.org). spend a few hours surfing the site. Keep doing this until you’ve learned a little bit. > [@get\_lives](#): > > Wake up. [Copblock.org](http://Copblock.org) > [@get\_lives](#): > > [Copblock.org](http://Copblock.org). [Moderating] **get lives** , if you don’t stop spamming that website, you will be banned as (wait for it…) a spammer. This is an official warning. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/849 "2015-03-03T17:02:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Trying to speak to the suspect is speaking peacefully. They’re not the ones that chose to escalate the matter. Your cognitive dissonance is truly astounding. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/850 "2015-03-03T17:44:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > **get lives** , if you don’t stop spamming that website, you will be banned as (wait for it…) a spammer. > > This is an official warning. > [/Moderating] Sorry, I didn’t mean to bother this august subforum with the deaths of thousands of citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/851 "2015-03-03T19:18:38Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > How did they approach an unarmed homeless person and then a few minutes later get to the point where he was grappling for their gun? Because he grabbed for it. > [@](#): > > Was his death worth whatever petty crime they were going to arrest him for? Were their tactics the best fit for the situation? Did they escalate the level of violence with their presence? The guy who grabbed the gun and got shot was a suspect in a robbery. Are you saying that robbery is a petty crime that should not have been investigated? And the police didn’t “escalate” any violence. The homeless guy initiated the violence. ["Security footage from the homeless shelter was described by the Associated Press, reportedly showing the suspect push over another person’s tent and then engage in an argument. "](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/03/police-claim-homeless-man-forcibly-grabbed-an-officers-gun-before-he-was-shot-to-death/) Then when he went and tried to hide in his tent, the police tried to roust him from it and he attacked them. > [@](#): > > Beck said the three veteran officers who shot at the victim had “extensive” training to handle the homeless and mentally ill. But crazy people are still crazy. Imagine that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/852 "2015-03-03T20:20:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because he grabbed for it. > The guy who grabbed the gun and got shot was a suspect in a robbery. Are you saying that robbery is a petty crime that should not have been investigated? > > And the police didn’t “escalate” any violence. The homeless guy initiated the violence. > ["Security footage from the homeless shelter was described by the Associated Press, reportedly showing the suspect push over another person’s tent and then engage in an argument. "](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/03/police-claim-homeless-man-forcibly-grabbed-an-officers-gun-before-he-was-shot-to-death/) > > Then when he went and tried to hide in his tent, the police tried to roust him from it and he attacked them. > But crazy people are still crazy. Imagine that. > > Regards, > Shodan So how is it that Western Europe manages to NOT kill even 1/1000 the number of mentally-ill homeless that the U.S. does? Don’t say guns. The mentally ill homeless can’t afford them, and almost never have them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/853 "2015-03-03T20:29:28Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > So how is it that Western Europe manages to NOT kill even 1/1000 the number of mentally-ill homeless that the U.S. does? Guns. > [@](#): > > Don’t say guns. The mentally ill homeless can’t afford them, and almost never have them. It’s absolutely _precious_ that you believe that. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/854 "2015-03-03T20:32:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Guns. > > It’s absolutely _precious_ that you believe that. Would you like to provide a cite, or was this just even less well-researched than usual for you on this particular topic? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/855 "2015-03-03T21:40:46Z")
[DEA celebrates Black History Month…](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/02/dea-group-apologizes-for-commemorating-black-history-month-with-the-arrest-of-a-harlem-drug-dealer/)by arresting a Harlem drug dealer and tweeting about it, tying it to said celebration. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/856 "2015-03-04T00:49:16Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Don’t say guns. The mentally ill homeless can’t afford them, and almost never have them. So they try to take them from police officers…often with sub optimal results, but thats the cops fault because they dont subscribe to the magic **get lives** descalation methodology (yet to be defined as more than some kind of handwaving) that magically calms people in the middle of psychotic episodes. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/857 "2015-03-04T02:00:14Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > So they try to take them from police officers…often with sub optimal results, but thats the cops fault because they dont subscribe to the magic **get lives** descalation methodology (yet to be defined as more than some kind of handwaving) that magically calms people in the middle of psychotic episodes. When’s the last time you heard of someone dying in a mental hospital during a psychotic episode or just general freakout? It rarely happens, because 1. Nobody who is looking for excitement or the chance to kill people applies to mental hospitals 2. Those employees have the training they need to deescalate those situations. The problem is that, when we shut down those awful state-run mental hospitals in the 1980s, we didn’t train the NEW first responders to these situations with mentally ill people–the police. The cops used to just deal with criminals. Now the mentally ill (and drugged-out people as well) are becoming a bigger and bigger issue. We traded awful state hospitals for a different problem, that of mentally ill people getting occasionally shot, instead of handled with compassion and understanding. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/858 "2015-03-04T02:47:49Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > When’s the last time you heard of someone dying in a mental hospital during a psychotic episode or just general freakout? It rarely happens, because > > 1. Nobody who is looking for excitement or the chance to kill people applies to mental hospitals > > 2. Those employees have the training they need to deescalate those situations. > > The problem is that, when we shut down those awful state-run mental hospitals in the 1980s, we didn’t train the NEW first responders to these situations with mentally ill people–the police. The cops used to just deal with criminals. Now the mentally ill (and drugged-out people as well) are becoming a bigger and bigger issue. We traded awful state hospitals for a different problem, that of mentally ill people getting occasionally shot, instead of handled with compassion and understanding. First responders have always dealt with the the mentally ill, problem is, first responders get a few minutes, a patient in a psych facility has already been assessed, identified and efforts made to properly medicate them. The staff has a pretty good idea what to expect from them, and in many cases understand that patients needs very well. From the perspective of an Ex-EMT I understand what you are asking for, but operational reality in the field throws a whole bucket of curveballs. I have been involved in dozens of situations forcibly restraining someone who was having some kind of bad trip or was mentally ill. There is no simple litmus test in the field for differentiating a very drunk violent asshole from a some flavors of mental illness. EMS folks are generally the “helpful” types and I have seen 20 year veteran paramedics with no better solution than to tackle someone and hope for the best. I would be very curious to see examples of actual methodologies for handling a situation like the LAPD situation upthread considering physical overpower and tasering were ineffective. Don’t just say “deescalate” thats not an answer any more than “work smarter not harder”. If you had to assemble a workshop training police officers in de-escalation methodologies, what would they consist of? If those methods require more than a few minutes, how should they deal with situations evolving in seconds? Monday morning quarterbacking many of these situations is easy, dealing with them in person is usually far less clear cut. What do you feel is a minimum criteria where a police officer should be allowed to use lethal force? Never is not a realistic answer. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/859 "2015-03-04T04:02:50Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > What do you feel is a minimum criteria where a police officer should be allowed to use lethal force? Never is not a realistic answer. Same as for anyone else–whenever no nonlethal action will not stop the situation. Yeah, that’s not a very precise answer, but how in the world do you think non-experts can predict all possible scenarios? All we can do is look at particular situations and give alternative actions that we think any reasonable person should have chosen to use, even in the moment. And if we can do that in a convincing way, we’ve established that lethal force was not the only option and thus improperly used. As for your other questions, unfortunately a lot of this stuff requires [paid access](http://www.crisisprevention.com/Resources/Knowledge-Base/De-escalation-Techniques). I just know they exist, since they are used in clinical settings. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/860 "2015-03-04T04:04:48Z")
Why didn’t they use pepper spray? When did that go out of fashion? Now it’s tazer, then bullets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=44)