# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/861 "2015-03-04T04:40:06Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > First responders have always dealt with the the mentally ill, problem is, first responders get a few minutes, a patient in a psych facility has already been assessed, identified and efforts made to properly medicate them. The staff has a pretty good idea what to expect from them, and in many cases understand that patients needs very well. > > From the perspective of an Ex-EMT I understand what you are asking for, but operational reality in the field throws a whole bucket of curveballs. I have been involved in dozens of situations forcibly restraining someone who was having some kind of bad trip or was mentally ill. There is no simple litmus test in the field for differentiating a very drunk violent asshole from a some flavors of mental illness. EMS folks are generally the “helpful” types and I have seen 20 year veteran paramedics with no better solution than to tackle someone and hope for the best. > > I would be very curious to see examples of actual methodologies for handling a situation like the LAPD situation upthread considering physical overpower and tasering were ineffective. Don’t just say “deescalate” thats not an answer any more than “work smarter not harder”. > > If you had to assemble a workshop training police officers in de-escalation methodologies, what would they consist of? > > If those methods require more than a few minutes, how should they deal with situations evolving in seconds? Monday morning quarterbacking many of these situations is easy, dealing with them in person is usually far less clear cut. > > What do you feel is a minimum criteria where a police officer should be allowed to use lethal force? Never is not a realistic answer. Ask some Western Europeans. They’re getting it done. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/862 "2015-03-04T06:40:25Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > I would be very curious to see examples of actual methodologies for handling a situation like the LAPD situation upthread considering physical overpower and tasering were ineffective. Don’t just say “deescalate” thats not an answer any more than “work smarter not harder”. > > If you had to assemble a workshop training police officers in de-escalation methodologies, what would they consist of? Well, first maybe we should send them to Germany, France, the UK or some other Western European nation to learn how they do things so that they don’t fucking murder their citizenry. That’d be a good start, I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/863 "2015-03-04T13:34:20Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > I would be very curious to see examples of actual methodologies for handling a situation like the LAPD situation upthread considering physical overpower and tasering were ineffective. Don’t just say “deescalate” thats not an answer any more than “work smarter not harder”. > > If you had to assemble a workshop training police officers in de-escalation methodologies, what would they consist of? Here’s a [couple](http://www.stripes.com/news/special-reports/casualties-of-the-after-war/program-trains-police-to-defuse-confrontations-with-troubled-veterans-1.312280) of [articles](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-lasvegas-doj-20141108-story.html#page=2) about Las Vegas’ program, there are plenty more if you search for them. > [@](#): > > De-escalation techniques have been known to reduce the need for use of force, the Justice Department report said. The training had not been a part of the Las Vegas culture in the past, the report added. > > While classroom training is still used, all officers and sergeants are now required to spend hours role-playing to defuse situations before they escalate. A recent training class pitted six officers against a carjacker. > > As officers pointed fake guns at the car, a patrolman screamed orders. Minutes later, the carjacker was handcuffed. Trainers stood to the side to grade each officer. > > Training Sgt. Jeff Coday said the exercises show that officers don’t need to rush a car or suspect — possibly triggering a shooting. “It slows the momentum down. We don’t want to force the issue.” ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/864 "2015-03-04T13:42:38Z")
And here’s a [couple](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JERkZoWGLWQ)of [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2O4GV6E3rI)I just found on youtube of police de-escalation training. One’s more of a trailer, the other is a full 90 minute workshop. I didn’t watch the whole thing but if you’re actually interested, there ya go. Point is, it’s not like these are magical ideas that limp-dicked tree-huggers are fantasizing about, they’re actual, proven methods to reduce police shootings and _keep police officers safe._ Some departments have implemented such training and policies, some have done it reluctantly, and others just seem to be carrying on as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/865 "2015-03-04T14:01:49Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Don’t say guns. The mentally ill homeless can’t afford them, and almost never have them. The mentally ill homeless person in the story didn’t have a gun, so he tried to grab one from the cops. That’s why they shot him. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/866 "2015-03-04T14:06:09Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Point is, it’s not like these are magical ideas that limp-dicked tree-huggers are fantasizing about, they’re actual, proven methods to reduce police shootings and _keep police officers safe._ Some departments have implemented such training and policies, some have done it reluctantly, and others just seem to be carrying on as usual. > [@](#): > > Beck said the three veteran officers who shot at the victim had “extensive” training to handle the homeless and mentally ill. It may reduce police shootings, but it does nothing to reduce knee-jerking like the sort we get from **get lives**. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/867 "2015-03-04T14:17:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It may reduce police shootings, but it does nothing to reduce knee-jerking like the sort we get from **get lives**. I don’t understand your point. Maybe the “extensive” LAPD training sucks ass. Maybe they’re trained extensively to use tazers and batons to work the homeless and mentally ill up into a rage. Are you arguing that these officers _had_ the sort of de-escalation training we’re talking about and applied that training well in this situation? And that the shooting was inevitable from the moment the 911 call was placed? And that there’s _nothing_ these officers could have done better? ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/868 "2015-03-04T16:36:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The mentally ill homeless person in the story didn’t have a gun, so he tried to grab one from the cops. That’s why they shot him. > > Regards, > Shodan Body cam video has not yet been released, shodan. We both know that this is irrelevant to the larger point, in any real sense. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/869 "2015-03-04T17:00:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Well, first maybe we should send them to Germany, France, the UK or some other Western European nation to learn how they do things so that they don’t fucking murder their citizenry. That’d be a good start, I reckon. I lived in Germany for over two years. I was in most of the larger cities in central and southern Germany at one point or another. Never once did I see a crazy person living on the street. When I go to NYC I’ll run into someone in the first 5 minutes. On Skid Row there are upwards of 1500 mostly mentally ill homeless living on that one street. The police dealing with the product of a broken mental health system they aren’t causing it. Any confirmation the the homeless guy was a convicted violent bank robber who was wanted by the U.S. Marshals? I’ve seen it on several sites but didn’t look like an official announcement. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/870 "2015-03-04T17:01:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The mentally ill homeless person in the story didn’t have a gun, so he tried to grab one from the cops. That’s why they shot him. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s the claim, you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/871 "2015-03-04T17:37:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s the claim, you mean. Apparently the guy who was shot [was a bank robber](http://theweek.com/speedreads/542357/homeless-man-shot-by-lapd-officers-came-using-stolen-identity). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/872 "2015-03-04T17:40:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Apparently the guy who was shot [was a bank robber](http://theweek.com/speedreads/542357/homeless-man-shot-by-lapd-officers-came-using-stolen-identity). Good thing he’s dead, then! Can’t be having bank robbers walking around town, not being dead! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/873 "2015-03-04T17:42:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Apparently the guy who was shot [was a bank robber](http://theweek.com/speedreads/542357/homeless-man-shot-by-lapd-officers-came-using-stolen-identity). He was robbing a bank when he was shot? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/874 "2015-03-04T17:43:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Apparently the guy who was shot [was a bank robber](http://theweek.com/speedreads/542357/homeless-man-shot-by-lapd-officers-came-using-stolen-identity). Apparently they didn’t know this at the time they shot him, so apparently it doesn’t fucking matter, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/875 "2015-03-04T17:45:50Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > When’s the last time you heard of someone dying in a mental hospital during a psychotic episode or just general freakout? It rarely happens, because > > 1. Nobody who is looking for excitement or the chance to kill people applies to mental hospitals > > 2. Those employees have the training they need to deescalate those situations. 1. The chances that a patient in a mental hospital is packing heat are slim to nil. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/876 "2015-03-04T17:47:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Apparently they didn’t know this at the time they shot him, so apparently it doesn’t fucking matter, does it? Explains why he would resist arrest to the point of trying to grab a cop’s gun. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/877 "2015-03-04T17:49:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Explains why he would resist arrest to the point of trying to grab a cop’s gun. I don’t follow. Can you explain in more detail? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/878 "2015-03-04T17:54:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. The chances that a patient in a mental hospital is packing heat are slim to nil. So are the chances of homeless on the street packing heat, especially the mentally ill. Anything worth as much as gun is quickly sold or pawned for food or drink. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/879 "2015-03-04T17:54:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > 1. The chances that a patient in a mental hospital is packing heat are slim to nil. If you can afford a gun, you’re probably not homeless. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/880 "2015-03-04T17:56:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t follow. Can you explain in more detail? He was a wanted man. He broke parole. He had a warrant from the U.S. Marshals. He was in this country under a stolen identity. He was a violent felon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=45)