# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 442
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8822 "2016-09-22T13:56:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The window was clearly rolled up. > > Even so, with many of these cases: **Does non-compliance with a police officer’s orders carry the death penalty?** > > No? Then maybe we need to change something here, and it isn’t “Do what you’re told or fucking DIE!” Sometimes it carries a death penalty. “put down the gun” ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8823 "2016-09-22T13:58:58Z")
I have one more question. What would your criteria be for an officer to employ deadly force? Please be as specific as possible, like you were writing a law or policy. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8824 "2016-09-22T14:15:17Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > What about as a percentage of the populations? This has been out for a while: [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0) > **[An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force](https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications/empirical-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force)** > > Roland G. Fryer J. An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force. Journal of Political Economy. Forthcoming. There are 1000 police shootings every year. A small handful make the news and about half of those seem like they are unfortunate but justified killings like in the case of that kid with the BB gun. The guy that shot Michael Brown seems like he was justified now that all the facts are out and the DoJ has had a chance to peruse all the information but the guy’s career is over. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8825 "2016-09-22T14:19:33Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8826 "2016-09-22T14:42:05Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It is an important step that will hopefully be followed elsewhere. > > There are certain things that cops are allowed to consider in determining whether they have reasonable suspicion sufficient to initiate a Terry stop. These include a lot of dubious items, like whether they are in a “high-crime neighborhood” or whether the suspect fits a vague description (often just race, gender, and height) or whether the suspect engages in “furtive gestures.” > > Fleeing the police is another really common basis for a stop. This opinion calls that basis in question, meaning that it will now be harder to justify stops based on a fleeing individual. > > That said, the test for reasonable suspicion is always the totality of the circumstances. So the practical impact is likely that cops will just the other ubiquitous bullshit reasons to justify fishing expedition stops. But if this is the start of a trend to start crossing off those bullshit reasons, it could be the beginning of real reform to the way black communities are policed in America. You are being very VERY optomistic. How many criminal charges have you seen thrown out based on bad terry stops? I used to clerk for a judge and I’ve seen minor drug possession charges thrown out but never a felony or class A misdemeanor. Reasonable suspicion is likely to include running from the police in the majority of states. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8827 "2016-09-22T14:46:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You are being very VERY optomistic. > > How many criminal charges have you seen thrown out based on bad terry stops? > > I used to clerk for a judge and I’ve seen minor drug possession charges thrown out but never a felony or class A misdemeanor. Reasonable suspicion is likely to include running from the police in the majority of states. I think maybe you failed to read the final lines of that post. To repeat it, with emphasis, “So the practical impact is likely that cops will just [use] the other ubiquitous bullshit reasons to justify fishing expedition stops. But if this is the start of a trend to start crossing off those bullshit reasons, it could be the beginning of real reform to the way black communities are policed in America.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8828 "2016-09-22T14:55:08Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Clearly any kind of non-compliant movement _could_, in theory, have been an attempt to murder the four police officers (all of whom had a bead on him). Ergo: non-compliance should be punished with death. That is very literally the argument being made here. I’m so glad I live in a country where people are not completely fucking insane. What you’re saying sounds like this: “Clearly the man was a professional hypnotist and _willed_ them to shoot him in some kind of Xanathos Gambit.” That’s how fucking stupid you sound right now. That’s how insane and bizarre and sick and _twisted_ you sound when you play apologetics for this clear case of fucking _murder_. What the fuck is wrong with you? It is probably not murder in the legal sense. Self defense is at least an imperfect defense here. The difference is that murder carries a sentence of 10 years to life (for second degree murder) and second degree manslaughter sentence might be as low as 2 years. > [@](#): > > Good. Now add the right to preemptively shoot back, and we’ll be golden. :mad: What percentage of the 1000 police killings do you think are as bad as what happened in Oklahoma? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8829 "2016-09-22T14:56:13Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think maybe you failed to read the final lines of that post. To repeat it, with emphasis, “So the practical impact is likely that cops will just [use] the other ubiquitous bullshit reasons to justify fishing expedition stops. But if this is the start of a trend to start crossing off those bullshit reasons, it could be the beginning of real reform to the way black communities are policed in America.” I STILL think you’re being optimistic but don’t stop. We need optimists in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8830 "2016-09-22T15:09:18Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Dammit! I told SHIELD no good would come from trying to replicate Erskine’s super soldier serum! Hmmm, maybe there’s something to those rumors of Hydra infiltration. PCP (AKA angel dust) sort of detaches you from your nervous system so that you don’t really feel anything. The reason its called angel dust is because you can’t feel your feet hitting the floor as you walk so it feels like you are floating like an angel. So if you are actually on PCP, most bullets will not slow you down unless they hit you in the head or heart. You are effectively immune from shock and not entirely rational (you are also unlikely to be very accurate with a gun). With that said, you don’t shoot to kill anyone that you think is on PCP. BTW, they found PCP in the guy’s car. > **[Police say PCP found in vehicle occupied by Terence Crutcher on Friday](https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/police-say-pcp-found-in-vehicle-occupied-by-terence-crutcher/article_d965a1f2-072b-57bf-a682-6b1cfb22b246.html)** > > Homicide Sgt. Dave Walker declined to say where in the vehicle investigators recovered the vial of PCP, nor did he say whether officers determined that Crutcher had used it Friday ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8831 "2016-09-22T15:14:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And what behavior was that? Walking slowly back to his car with his hands up? Not to defend the trigger happy cops but if you are ordered to get on the ground and you walk back to your car, that is going to make reasonable cops nervous. > [@](#): > > And specifically, do you know what PCP is? Can you recognize the effects well enough to conclude when someone is under the influence of PCP? Or are you just taking the word of the cops about a “bad dude”? The trigger happy cop had been given training in recognizing the effects of PCP specifically and she recognized the hallmarks of PCP use. They found PCP in Terence Crutcher’s car. > [@](#): > > Noncompliance is not a capital crime. Any police officer, with backup, who is so scared while holding a gun on an unaggressive suspect at a distance, should never be sworn in as a law enforcement officer. The cops seemed waay too nervous. The cop that shot Philando Castile also seemed to suffer from this nervousness. Looks a lot like second degree manslaughter from the video evidence even if he was on PCP. But for a lot of juries, the officer would be acting reasonably if the autopsy shows that there was PCP in Terence Crutcher’s system. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8832 "2016-09-22T15:18:09Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I have one more question. What would your criteria be for an officer to employ deadly force? Please be as specific as possible, like you were writing a law or policy. Thanks. Imminent threat of death of serious injury to the officer or anyone else. Exactly what it is now in most places I think. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8833 "2016-09-22T16:00:40Z")
[Charlotte authorities will not release dash-cam video of the shooting of the black man, K.L. Scott.](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/charlotte-protests/) A law will soon take effect in North Carolina that will bar such releases in general. Does this seem wise? Yes, videos can be misleading but transparency is an important part of any solution to these woes. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8834 "2016-09-22T16:13:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Charlotte authorities will not release dash-cam video of the shooting of the black man, K.L. Scott.](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/charlotte-protests/) A law will soon take effect in North Carolina that will bar such releases in general. > > Does this seem wise? Yes, videos can be misleading but transparency is an important part of any solution to these woes. They are only misleading if the video contradicts the police statement. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8835 "2016-09-22T16:21:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [Charlotte authorities will not release dash-cam video of the shooting of the black man, K.L. Scott.](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/charlotte-protests/) A law will soon take effect in North Carolina that will bar such releases in general. > > Does this seem wise? Yes, videos can be misleading but transparency is an important part of any solution to these woes. If their goal is to create a complete breakdown of society, I can think of few better steps. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8836 "2016-09-22T16:22:44Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I have one more question. What would your criteria be for an officer to employ deadly force? Please be as specific as possible, like you were writing a law or policy. Thanks. How about waiting to see if the suspect _actually_ has a weapon? Is that really too much to ask? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8837 "2016-09-22T16:40:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > His behavior suggested he was on PCP, which has been known to make people super strong and also impervious to tasering, and this is why the helicopter pilot said he looked like a bad dude. Okay, first, are you saying that the cop in the helicopter was able to observe behavior that suggested Mr. Crutcher had used PCP? Specifically PCP? He could tell that frame few seconds of observation from hundreds of feet above Mr. Crutcher? :dubious: What kind of training would give an officer that kind of insight? How much experience with PCP users did this officer have? :dubious: Second, [read this quote from a June 17, 1991 LA Times article about PCP: > [@](#): > > In his seminal book that reviews the history of drug abuse in America, Yale psychiatrist David Musto describes how cocaine, for example, gained a foothold among Southern blacks in the early 1900s. He cited anecdotes that circulated about the sexual rapaciousness, criminal tendencies and superhuman strength cocaine instilled in blacks–providing what he said was yet another excuse for their repression. > > A “myth that cocaine made blacks almost unaffected by mere .32-caliber bullets is said to have caused Southern police departments to switch to .38-caliber revolvers,” Musto asserted. > > Attorney Carol Watson, a member of the board of the Police Misconduct Lawyers Referral Service in Los Angeles and who has represented citizens in police abuse cases for a decade, said that in years past, when PCP was more popular, it was “not uncommon” for police to use PCP as a justification for their excessive force in making arrests. > > She said police use PCP as an excuse because “they believe the public will go along with any use of force if they make a claim the person was under the influence of PCP. The perception is that PCP is so dangerous that any means are justified to subdue the person.” ]([COLUMN ONE : Effects of PCP: Myth Vs. Reality : Stories abound about the drug imbuing people with superhuman strength. But some researchers say those claims are overrated. Much about the drug remains a mystery.](http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-17/news/mn-625_1_drug-abuse)) 25 years later the Tulsa police are trying to prove that is still true, and you’re buying into it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8838 "2016-09-22T17:25:55Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Okay, first, are you saying that the cop in the helicopter was able to observe behavior that suggested Mr. Crutcher had used PCP? Specifically PCP? He could tell that frame few seconds of observation from hundreds of feet above Mr. Crutcher? :dubious: What kind of training would give an officer that kind of insight? How much experience with PCP users did this officer have? :dubious: > > Second, [read this quote from a June 17, 1991 LA Times article about PCP:](http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-17/news/mn-625_1_drug-abuse) > 25 years later the Tulsa police are trying to prove that is still true, and you’re buying into it. Like testing to see if he’s a witch. If they shoot him, and he goes down with one shot, then he \*wasn’\*t on PCP. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8839 "2016-09-22T17:40:25Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Like testing to see if he’s a witch. If they shoot him, and he goes down with one shot, then he \*wasn’\*t on PCP. I am so going to hell for laughing at that. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8840 "2016-09-22T17:42:55Z")
[New information](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/while-illuminating-tulsa-videos-leave-out-key-details/ar-BBwsT9V?li=BBnb7Kz) > [@](#): > > Shelby, en route to a domestic violence call, encounters the abandoned vehicle and eventually radios into dispatch, “Hold traffic. I got a subject who won’t show me his hands,” but nothing captures what went on between Shelby and Crutcher prior to other officers showing up. She didn’t turn on her lights at this time. Turing on the lights activates the dashboard cam. > [@](#): > > A Tulsa police spokeswoman initially told reporters that Crutcher refused requests to put his hands in the air. After the footage was released Monday suggesting otherwise, spokeswoman Jeanne MacKenzie said she was relying on reports from officers at the time. > [@](#): > > Also Tuesday, Sgt. Shane Tuell confirmed Shelby had a stun gun at the time but did not use it. could have used a non-lethal weapon, but chose not to. > [@](#): > > No body camera footage exists, because Tulsa police have not implemented the devices for officers, despite receiving a federal grant to do so last year. Guess they got more important things to do. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8841 "2016-09-22T18:50:36Z")
I wonder when people will finally stop giving police “the benefit of the doubt.” I mean, how many instances where the police say one thing and then video is release that show the exact opposite happening? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=441) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=443)