# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 444
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8862 "2016-09-23T01:04:56Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Like testing to see if he’s a witch. If they shoot him, and he goes down with one shot, then he \*wasn’\*t on PCP. If you kill someone on the first shot then they would probably have died regardless of whether they were on PCP or not. PCP just makes you immune from pain not death. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8863 "2016-09-23T01:05:52Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Well, the totality of the circumstances did NOT determine this, as the office is question is now facing manslaughter charges. That doesn’t prove anything. The Tulsa police chief has been playing CYA with this from day one and Tulsa’s city officials are obviously trying to defuse the situation by making her a scapegoat so as not to appear racist. I have not the slightest doubt that the officer was acting as she was trained to act, and the fact she’s been charged with manslaughter isn’t the slightest indicator of anything other than that Tulsa’s officials don’t want another Charlotte on their hands. A distinct possibility, since the media insisted on publishing the lie that he was shot with his hands up despite video early on showing that he wasn’t shot until he lowered his hands and reached for the door. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8864 "2016-09-23T01:07:11Z")
It’s sad — and rather disturbing — that often the most objective news about America comes from a European source, or Al-Jazeera, or even Russia’s RT. One [good American news show did offer a look at the Crutcher killing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZmRW1x4A24). Of course it’s good news that the killer has been charged with a crime. Even better would be positive steps in hiring and training to make these killings less common. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8865 "2016-09-23T01:12:53Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > [New information](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/while-illuminating-tulsa-videos-leave-out-key-details/ar-BBwsT9V?li=BBnb7Kz) > > She didn’t turn on her lights at this time. Turing on the lights activates the dashboard cam. > > could have used a non-lethal weapon, but chose not to. If you are alone, I don’t think you’re supposed to pull out a taser. Those things have one maybe two shots and they may or may not disable the suspect. I think the second officer is supposed to pull out the taser and IIRC the guy with the TASER should have fired waay waay sooner than he did. The taser should have been fired as soon as Terence he got NEAR his car and then subdued him. I think a lot of police departments follow this procedure when dealing with a single suspect. When dealing with multiple suspects, I think everyone pulls out a gun. > [@](#): > > Guess they got more important things to do. This is inexcusable. As far as I am concerned the failure of the Tulsa Police Department to issue body cams would make me see all evidence in the light least favorable to them in a civil lawsuit. We have to make it really fucking expensive to maintain this sort of bullshit policy. Have the body cam turn on as soon as the gun is removed from the holster, heck have the dash cam turn on as soon as the gun is pulled from the holster while we’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8866 "2016-09-23T01:14:03Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > I wonder when people will finally stop giving police “the benefit of the doubt.” I mean, how many instances where the police say one thing and then video is release that show the exact opposite happening? They’re not supposed to give police any more benefit of the doubt than anyone else. But even the police entitled to their guilt being proven beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8867 "2016-09-23T01:18:53Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I’m aware of PCP. I’ve had to deal with a couple of people who were (probably) on it. I accidentally smoked some myself a couple of decades ago when I took a couple of hits off a joint that had been laced with the stuff. > > PCP does cause disorientation, numbness, and bad behavior. Of course so does alcohol, if you drink enough. It does not give superpowers. You can’t lift anything you couldn’t when sober. (You might tear your muscles lifting something you shouldn’t) You can’t punch any harder than you would when sober. If you break your knee you might not feel it, but you aren’t going to be able to walk. It’s a terrible drug, and should be avoided, but it’s not magic. If you have been on PCP then you know that PCP is not like alcohol. It feels like your brain has been detached from your body. I never said it was magic, I was posting to refute the notion that its like super soldier serum. At the same time its not like pot or alcohol. It fucks up your judgment and ability to reason and it also makes you immune from pain. It was initially developed as an attempt to develop a new anesthetic but it caused to much delirium to be useful for that purpose. Its not an excuse to kill someone and frankly I doubt your aim is very good when you are on PCP. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8868 "2016-09-23T01:20:47Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I have used PCP on a number of occasions. I acted like a complete hyper-asshole, but I did not get super strength and **I was still able to feel pain**. You sure that was PCP? PCP is an analgesic and if taken in sufficient quantities to achieve the floating feeling, you are effectively anesthetized. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8869 "2016-09-23T01:25:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It’s sad — and rather disturbing — that often the most objective news about America comes from a European source, or Al-Jazeera, or even Russia’s RT. One [good American news show did offer a look at the Crutcher killing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZmRW1x4A24). I note that as has been the case with virtually every other video the media has promoted since the shooting, the video cuts off right before Crutcher lowers his hands. This is what’s called ‘manufactured outrage’, and it’s intended to further promote the fiction that Crutcher was shot with his hands up. > [@septimus](#): > > Of course it’s good news that the killer has been charged with a crime. Even better would be positive steps in hiring and training to make these killings less common. Couldn’t agree more that changes need to be made in training procedures as to when the use of deadly force is appropriate. It’s wrong however to arrest and charge officers after the fact for acting in accordance with that training. Officer Shelby is being scapegoated for political purposes and will probably be found not guilty by a jury of her peers, after which she will hopefully instigate a successful lawsuit to get her job back along with back pay and a settlement to take care of her legal fees. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8870 "2016-09-23T01:32:17Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > **Tyre King Likely Running Away at Time of Shooting, According to Forensic Pathologist** > > [https://www.waltonbrownlaw.com/news/30](https://www.waltonbrownlaw.com/news/30) The autopsy and coroner’s report are not out yet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8871 "2016-09-23T01:36:48Z")
> [@PeskiPiksi](#): > > Officer Shelby has been [charged](http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/the-tulsa-county-district-attorneys-officer-to-hold-a-press-conference-regarding-terence-crutcher)with 1st degree manslaughter. I suspect this will result in second degree manslaughter and she will get 2-4 years. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8872 "2016-09-23T01:39:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Couldn’t agree more that changes need to be made in training procedures as to when the use of deadly force is appropriate. It’s wrong however to arrest and charge officers after the fact for acting in accordance with that training. Officer Shelby is being scapegoated for political purposes and will probably be found not guilty by a jury of her peers, after which she will hopefully instigate a successful lawsuit to get her job back along with back pay and a settlement to take care of her legal fees. Under the “Hey, our training allows me to kill N----rs” Policy? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8873 "2016-09-23T01:45:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They’re not supposed to give police any more benefit of the doubt than anyone else. But even the police entitled to their guilt being proven beyond a reasonable doubt. I agree with you. Unfortunately, the pendulum is more towards giving them as much leeway as possible. But yeah, I’ll be shocked if she serves times. I bet she won’t. No, Tusla will pay a crapton in wrongful death settlements and she’ll walk. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8874 "2016-09-23T01:46:39Z")
The whole “He looked like he was high on PCP! Of course he was scary and threatening!” narrative is very troubling to me. You also know who looks like they could be on PCP? People with neurological conditions. Like those caused by car accidents. Or those caused by physical assault. For all Officer Shelby knew, Crutcher’s behavior was due to a medical problem–explaining why his vehicle was stuck there in the middle of the road. For all she knew, he’d just been in a car accident or he’d just been attacked by another motorist. But no. Her first reaction was to shout orders with her gun pointed at him. Acting like a weirdo with black skin shouldn’t warrant a death sentence. You’re afraid of weirdos, Officer Friendly? Then don’t be a freakin’ police officer. Be something else. You don’t get to shoot every twitchy person you see. Some of us twitch and mumble for perfectly valid reasons–yes, even us black folks. If someone isn’t communicative and they’re acting bizarre, call for an EMT. Because you might be dealing with someone who needs medical treatment. Not a fucking bullet in his chest. The more shit like this keeps happening, the more I wish we could have Robocop. Robocop would have some downsides, but at least it wouldn’t be afraid all the time. And while I have the microphone, I’d like to take a moment to yell “FUCK YOU” to all the misogynistic asswipes on Reddit who keep making this out to be an incompetent “female officer” thing. Like male police officers don’t ever fuck up on the job? Yes, she sounded emotional right after she killed the guy. So did that guy who shot Philando Castro. Or all the other male cops that have been involved in “bad shoots” through the years. It’s like racists and sexists are having a field day with this story. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8875 "2016-09-23T01:55:58Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Actually, yes, that really is too much to ask. The officer is already reacting to what a suspect is doing and that results in a lag. This is known as the “reactionary gap”. By the time an officer has confirmed it is actually a weapon but before he can react, the suspect can have already fired multiple rounds. This has been shown time and again in various studies. I personally ran an airsoft (bb gun) scenario where officers were confronted with a burglary suspect facing them with his hands in his coat pockets. Around 200 officers took part. 90% of officers said “Show me your hands” or something similar. 100% had the suspect at gunpoint. The suspect then drew a pistol from his pocket and fired an un-aimed shot (or shots) at the the officer. 100% of the time the suspect was able to get off the first shot(s), hitting the officer around 90% of the time. > > Therefore, the training (and policy/law) is - the totality of the circumstances determine what you may do. Waiting to confirm it is a firearm when you have other reasons to believe the suspect may be armed carries with it a very substantial risk that you will be shot. There is no legal or moral requirement that you do so. There is a gun smith where I get my 1911 tweaked out and they have a laser gun simulator. If I have the gun out and trained on the other guy, they almost never get the first shot. Was Bob Munden running the exercise? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8876 "2016-09-23T02:04:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The whole “He looked like he was high on PCP! Of course he was scary and threatening!” narrative is very troubling to me. > > You also know who looks like they could be on PCP? People with neurological conditions. Like those caused by car accidents. Or those caused by physical assault. For all Officer Shelby knew, Crutcher’s behavior was due to a medical problem–explaining why his vehicle was stuck there in the middle of the road. For all she knew, he’d just been in a car accident or he’d just been attacked by another motorist. But no. Her first reaction was to shout orders with her gun pointed at him. She had already checked out the car (and therefore would have known if it had been in an accident) before encountering Crutcher. And he’d had already been reported by 911 callers to have been on the side of the road and acting strangely. Officer Shelby had already been interacting with him for a minute or so before the video starts. During that time she radioed in that she had a subject that was refusing to follow commands. It was at that point she drew her gun. Her side of the story, including what happened from the time she arrived on the scene, can be found [here](http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-police-officer-shares-side-story-terence-crutchers/story?id=42243843). Obviously it’s her story and people are going to say she’s making it up to suit her own purposes, but there are 911 tapes that substantiate the fact he was acting strangely and that he wasn’t following lawful police commands prior to the time she drew her weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8877 "2016-09-23T02:07:27Z")
Because of course, “not obeying lawful commands” requires death. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8878 "2016-09-23T02:17:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I suspect this will result in second degree manslaughter and she will get 2-4 years. Bwahahaha! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8879 "2016-09-23T02:43:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Because of course, “not obeying lawful commands” requires death. Gotcha. Not obeying lawful commands was the reason why the officer drew her gun. If you were to read for comprehension rather than trying to pick out snippets to make idiotic claims with you’d already know that. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8880 "2016-09-23T02:43:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > She had already checked out the car (and therefore would have known if it had been in an accident) before encountering Crutcher. And he’d had already been reported by 911 callers to have been on the side of the road and acting strangely. Officer Shelby had already been interacting with him for a minute or so before the video starts. During that time she radioed in that she had a subject that was refusing to follow commands. It was at that point she drew her gun. Her side of the story, including what happened from the time she arrived on the scene, can be found [here](http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-police-officer-shares-side-story-terence-crutchers/story?id=42243843). Obviously it’s her story and people are going to say she’s making it up to suit her own purposes, but there are 911 tapes that substantiate the fact he was acting strangely and that he wasn’t following lawful police commands prior to the time she drew her weapon. And I’m saying that not complying with orders shouldn’t warrant a death penalty since there’s a million innocent reasons a person isn’t responding properly. They might be having a petit mal seizure. Or maybe they are schizophrenic, autistic, mentally handicapped, and/or hearing impaired. If a police officer can’t get a person under control and they are THAT afraid, they can always retreat to their vehicle and wait for back-up to arrive. She describes Crutcher as a “suspect”. What the hell was he suspected of doing? Since when is being a weirdo on the side of the road a crime? Basically police officers have put anyone who has a movement disorder on notice. We might twitch one too many times and set off their triggers, poor sensitive things. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8881 "2016-09-23T03:03:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not obeying lawful commands was the reason why the officer drew her gun. If you were to read for comprehension rather than trying to pick out snippets to make idiotic claims with you’d already know that. So what, explicitly, in your opinion, was the reason he was shot dead? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=443) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=445)