# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 445
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8882 "2016-09-23T03:10:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And I’m saying that not complying with orders shouldn’t warrant a death penalty since there’s a million innocent reasons a person isn’t responding properly. They might be having a petit mal seizure. Or maybe they are schizophrenic, autistic, mentally handicapped, and/or hearing impaired. If a police officer can’t get a person under control and they are THAT afraid, they can always retreat to their vehicle and wait for back-up to arrive. She did wait for backup to arrive, albeit not while cowering inside her locked vehicle. > [@monstro](#): > > She describes Crutcher as a “suspect”. What the hell was he suspected of doing? I believe he was suspected of being under the influence of drugs. > [@monstro](#): > > Since when is being a weirdo on the side of the road a crime? It isn’t. But refusing to obey a police officer’s lawful commands is. > [@monstro](#): > > Basically police officers have put anyone who has a movement disorder on notice. We might twitch one too many times and set off their triggers, poor sensitive things. Oh, so now your claim is that he had a movement disorder? And this subsequently caused him to twitch and get shot? He slowly and deliberately and with his hands up calmly walked up to his car in direct contravention of several police officers yelling at him to stop, slowly and deliberately turned to face the driver’s side door, and then suddenly ‘twitched’ in such a way as to make it appear he was trying to open the door, and it was this twitch that got him shot? In that case, yeah, I’d say the cops are putting people on notice that if you behave in an incoherent way, approach them in a threatening way (as he did prior to the arrival of backup), defy their orders, and then ‘twitch’ in such a way as to suggest you’re going for a weapon, then yeah, you might indeed find triggers being pulled. Fortunately I don’t imagine such a scenario ever happening outside your fevered imagination. You’re an intelligent and well-educated person and I often find you posts to enjoyable, informative and insightful, but I’m afraid you’ve really let your emotions get the better of you in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8883 "2016-09-23T03:19:22Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > So what, explicitly, in your opinion, was the reason he was shot dead? I’m going to assume you’ve missed the many times it’s been spelled out already. He was shot because he insisted on approaching his car despite having been warned not to, and once there dropping his hands and reaching for the handle of the door, which made it appear he was going for a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8884 "2016-09-23T03:22:25Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Outside of movies or suicide attempts, I wonder how many criminals, confronted by multiple police with guns pointed at them, decide to try to shoot one of the police? This is what I wonder. Why on earth would someone do this? Oh, I know, PCP. You can’t understand the mind of someone on PCP, right? So it’s no surprise that he behaved in brain-less ways that ensured his death. Convenient. I’m assuming toxicology has not been released yet? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8885 "2016-09-23T03:25:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m going to assume you’ve missed the many times it’s been spelled out already. He was shot because he insisted on approaching his car despite having been warned not to, and once there dropping his hands and reaching for the handle of the door, which made it appear he was going for a weapon. So ultimately, non-compliance, or shady behavior, or the officer’s misinterpretation of what was happening - that was a death penalty offense? Remember - the man is DEAD. Either it was justifiable (and therefore something happened to make it a reasonable outcome) or it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8886 "2016-09-23T03:43:27Z")
When people are shot by the police while in the commission of a crime or when their behavior makes it appear they are a treat, their death is not a ‘penalty’, it’s the result of self-defense on the part of the officer involved. And I would say it was justifiable based on the way cops appear to have been trained over the last few decades. I don’t agree with it and have felt for a long time that cops are way too quick to shoot these days, but I have a hard time faulting cops for reacting in the way they’re trained to react. Police departments need to stop training their officers to shoot at the threat of a threat and fire instead only when a genuine threat has presented itself. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8887 "2016-09-23T04:04:03Z")
Except it wasn’t self defense, because he wasn’t a threat. Hence the manslaughter charge. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8888 "2016-09-23T04:10:11Z")
Part of the problem appears to be a society in which a fair number of people view the police as antagonistic. The police are not currently doing anything significant to soften this part of their image, so it starts to look more and more like some sort of gang war between the blue gang and the non-white gang, with the rest of us being caught in crossfire. In other words, the police themselves, as a group, are creating a large fraction the violence problem that they are fighting against. Job security. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8889 "2016-09-23T04:13:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The autopsy and coroner’s report are not out yet. From the quoted article: > [@](#): > > In search of answers, the family retained Francisco J. Diaz, MD, FCAP, who serves as a practicing medical examiner in the County of Wayne, Michigan, as a Consultant Forensic Pathologist. Dr. Diaz examined Tyre’s body in Columbus, Ohio on September 18, 2016 . Dr. Diaz was asked to evaluate the number, the physical characteristics and the location of any gunshot wounds Tyre suffered in his death. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8890 "2016-09-23T05:27:54Z")
I’m imaging a much different ending to the movie _Rain Man_. “Hot bullets burn Raymond!” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8891 "2016-09-23T05:57:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > When people are shot by the police while in the commission of a crime … their death is not a ‘penalty’ Jaywalking + police = death. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8892 "2016-09-23T11:07:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > She did wait for backup to arrive, albeit not while cowering inside her locked vehicle. > > I believe he was suspected of being under the influence of drugs. > > It isn’t. But refusing to obey a police officer’s lawful commands is. > > Oh, so now your claim is that he had a movement disorder? And this subsequently caused him to twitch and get shot? > > He slowly and deliberately and with his hands up calmly walked up to his car in direct contravention of several police officers yelling at him to stop, slowly and deliberately turned to face the driver’s side door, and then suddenly ‘twitched’ in such a way as to make it appear he was trying to open the door, and it was this twitch that got him shot? > > In that case, yeah, I’d say the cops are putting people on notice that if you behave in an incoherent way, approach them in a threatening way (as he did prior to the arrival of backup), defy their orders, and then ‘twitch’ in such a way as to suggest you’re going for a weapon, then yeah, you might indeed find triggers being pulled. > > Fortunately I don’t imagine such a scenario ever happening outside your fevered imagination. You’re an intelligent and well-educated person and I often find you posts to enjoyable, informative and insightful, but I’m afraid you’ve really let your emotions get the better of you in this case. The video does not at all make clear all these details you’re claiming. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8893 "2016-09-23T11:08:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’m going to assume you’ve missed the many times it’s been spelled out already. He was shot because he insisted on approaching his car despite having been warned not to, and once there dropping his hands and reaching for the handle of the door, which made it appear he was going for a weapon. This last part is not clear in the video. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8894 "2016-09-23T12:33:22Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You also know who looks like they could be on PCP? People with neurological conditions. Like those caused by car accidents. Or those caused by physical assault. You know who else looks like they could be on PCP? People who are on PCP. > [@](#): > > [Oklahoma prison officials confirmed Crutcher also served four years in prison from 2007 to 2011 on a Tulsa County drug-trafficking conviction. > > Court records show officers used force against Crutcher on at least four separate occasions, including a 2012 arrest on public intoxication and obstruction complaints. In that case, an officer used a stun gun on Crutcher twice while he was face down on the ground because the officer said Crutcher didn’t comply with at least three orders to show his hands, a police affidavit states. Crutcher’s father showed up while he was being arrested and told the officers that his son had “an ongoing problem” with the drug PCP, the affidavit states.]([Terence Crutcher Shooting: What We Know | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/2016/09/22/terence-crutcher-shooting-what-we-know/)) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8895 "2016-09-23T12:49:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Police departments need to stop training their officers to shoot at the threat of a threat and fire instead only when a genuine threat has presented itself. I think that this is an idea everyone in this thread can support. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8896 "2016-09-23T12:54:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You know who else looks like they could be on PCP? People who are on PCP. > Regards, > Shodan Since you have seen the toxicology reports, you should share them, because the rest of us are just speculating. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8897 "2016-09-23T12:59:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And I would say it was justifiable based on the way cops appear to have been trained over the last few decades. I don’t agree with it and have felt for a long time that cops are way too quick to shoot these days, but I have a hard time faulting cops for reacting in the way they’re trained to react. > > **Police departments need to stop training their officers to shoot at the threat of a threat and fire instead only when a genuine threat has presented itself**. (bolding mine) I normally am reliably in full disagreement with SA on just about every social policy issue but that last bit is a very sensible point he has made before in the thread. Police are being conditioned to take zero chances whatsoever until the situation degenerates into a deadly force decision… and the threshold for the decision has lowered. That has got to change – it gets people killed unnecessarily; and it feeds into the vision of police as a force to exert power, rather than a protective service. That he concluded that therefore that absolves the involved officers of any personal guilt, well… I’ll give him that if he gives me that it also explains how many AA citizens are likely to have become conditioned that cooperation is futile and might as well resist and/or run. So, then … is “explains” the same as “justifies”? … As to the whole PCP thing going on about in the thread, merely being on something or acting like you are is not itself a deadly threat either (and yes, let’s see the tox panels on the autopsy about that, how about we do?). Though yah, sure, it makes a fine excuse why nobody tried a 4-on-1 takedown “oh, no, he was dusted, he’d have made mincemeat of 4 people” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8898 "2016-09-23T13:06:14Z")
I haven’t seen the toxicology reports. **monstro** was saying that people with medical conditions can look like they are on PCP. There is no evidence that Crutcher had any medical condtions that made it look like he was on PCP. People who are on PCP also look like they are on PCP. There is evidence that Crutcher was on PCP - the fact that PCP was found in his car, that he had served time for drugs, that he was arrested for public intoxication, that his father said that he had an ongoing problem with PCP. There is also evidence that he refuses to show his hands and thus resists arrest when he is arrested for using PCP. So, what evidence is there that he had a medical condition? None. What evidence is there that he was on PCP, just like the officers said? More than none. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8899 "2016-09-23T13:13:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I haven’t seen the toxicology reports. > > **monstro** was saying that people with medical conditions can look like they are on PCP. There is no evidence that Crutcher had any medical condtions that made it look like he was on PCP. People who are on PCP also look like they are on PCP. There is evidence that Crutcher was on PCP - the fact that PCP was found in his car, that he had served time for drugs, that he was arrested for public intoxication, that his father said that he had an ongoing problem with PCP. There is also evidence that he refuses to show his hands and thus resists arrest when he is arrested for using PCP. And the officer had this information when she shot him and that’s why she shot him? She knew his medical records and past arrest record? She should have said. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8900 "2016-09-23T13:23:06Z")
It was just a few years ago when “_Don’t taze me, bro_” was a thing. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8901 "2016-09-23T13:31:01Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > And the officer had this information when she shot him and that’s why she shot him? She knew his medical records and past arrest record? She should have said. No, she didn’t. She made a judgment that he was on PCP, and there is evidence now that her judgment was correct. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=444) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=446)