# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 447
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8922 "2016-09-23T16:36:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Some in this thread are confusing his appearing to be on PCP as the reason he was shot vs. it being the reason Officer Shelby drew her gun on him in the first place. That, and his behavior once backup arrived, is the reason the rest of them drew their weapons. Crutcher was shot because he reached for the door (something every news video I’ve seen since the first day cuts away from just before it happens). Based on their training the officers perceived this as a threat. This is why one of the other officers fired his taser at the same time Shelby fired her gun. Both were reflexive actions the officers took based upon their training. They didn’t fire at the same time, and if something as innocuous as walking calmly back to his vehicle indicated to the officers that he was on PCP, then that police force must live in a state of constant fear that 3/4 of the population are high on the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8923 "2016-09-23T16:45:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You sure that was PCP? PCP is an analgesic and if taken in sufficient quantities to achieve the floating feeling, you are effectively anesthetized. Have you ever taken it? Yes, it gets you higher than kite. You definitely feel different. But you are not _numb_. What kind of fun would _numb_ be? When they say ‘feeling no pain’, they mean feeling really good. You would still know if someone shot you. It would still hurt and would likely harsh your mellow. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8924 "2016-09-23T16:55:56Z")
Only one officer had her gun aimed at Crutcher. The others had their tasers pointed at him. They were smart. She was reckless. Notice how no one is condemning the officers for having their tasers out? If a crazy person is acting crazy, then yeah, restrain him so you can at least take him to the hospital and figure out what the hell is up with him. But killing him? There’s no excuse for that level of force in this situation. **Shodan** , Officer Shelby had no idea that Crutcher was high on anything when she shot him. Yes, he was acting bizarrely, but you can act bizarre without being on an illegal drug (and you can act bizarre while on a [legally prescribed drug](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/ambien-side-effect-sleepwalking-sleep-aid_n_4589743.html)). And I’m not inclined to believe he was high on anything until we get the toxicology report back. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8925 "2016-09-23T16:56:56Z")
Meanwhile, there continue to be controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians; [this one is from Phoenix, AZ: > [@](#): > > Three Phoenix police officers have resigned after a man alleged they forced him to eat marijuana found in his vehicle to avoid going to jail, Chief Joseph Yahner said Thursday. > > A fourth officer, Jeff Farrior, was demoted from lieutenant to sergeant for being aware of last week’s incident and not taking appropriate action, Yahner told reporters. > > “Their actions are appalling and unacceptable. This conduct is against everything that we stand for,” Yahner said. > > Police identified the three officers who quit as Richard G. Pina, Jason E. McFadden and Michael J. Carnicle. > > Two of them are being investigated both criminally and by the department, Yahner said, adding that the third officer is considered a witness to the act and is the subject of just the administrative investigation. ](Have you seen this yet? [If You Vote For Trump, Then Screw You | GQ](http://www.gq.com/story/a-word-for-donald-trump-voters))So props to Chief Yahner on this one for being on top of the situation, even if I wish he’d have fired them. Allowing a bad cop to resign and thus have their record remain unblemished (enabling them to find new employment as LEOs) strikes me as no different than the Catholic Church shuffling pedo priests around to new parishes. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8926 "2016-09-23T17:04:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They didn’t fire at the same time, and if something as innocuous as walking calmly back to his vehicle indicated to the officers that he was on PCP, then that police force must live in a state of constant fear that 3/4 of the population are high on the stuff. Welcome to the thread, **Czarcasm**. If you’d been here long enough to know what you’re talking about, you’d know that it was his behavior as he approached her from the side of the road and the way he reacted to her commands that are what caused her to suspect he was on PCP. His behavior at that time was also why she radioed for backup and why she drew her gun. And do you have a cite they didn’t fire at the same time? Every report I saw on the day it happened indicated they fired pretty much simultaneously. (On the other hand, it could be the taser was fired first and had no effect, thereby prompting the gunshot. Either way, it was Crutcher’s reaching for the door that caused him to be shot, and not the fact he was on PCP.) > [@monstro](#): > > Only one officer had her gun aimed at Crutcher. The others had their tasers pointed at him. This is the first I’ve heard of this. But you are aware that Officer Shelby had already drawn her gun on him prior to the arrival of backup officers, correct? And the reason for that was that he was approaching her and behaving toward her in a threatening manner, a manner threatening enough to cause her to radio for help and draw her weapon. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8927 "2016-09-23T17:08:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …and not the fact he was on PCP… This is not, at the present moment, a “fact”. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8928 "2016-09-23T17:17:07Z")
Doesn’t matter in the slightest. The point is that he wasn’t shot for walking calmly back to his car, nor was calmly walking back to his car the reason he was suspected of being on PCP. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8929 "2016-09-23T17:23:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Doesn’t matter in the slightest. The point is that he wasn’t shot for walking calmly back to his car, nor was calmly walking back to his car the reason he was suspected of being on PCP. The fact that what you say are facts are not established facts yet don’t matter to you in the slightest is a very significant fact itself, and this fact leads me to believe that you’re just talking out of your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8930 "2016-09-23T17:23:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Doesn’t matter in the slightest. The point is that he wasn’t shot for walking calmly back to his car, nor was calmly walking back to his car the reason he was suspected of being on PCP. Right. He was suspected of being on PCP because he was black. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8931 "2016-09-23T17:30:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The fact that what you say are facts are not established facts yet don’t matter to you in the slightest is a very significant fact itself, and this fact leads me to believe that you’re just talking out of your ass. My not established facts are a lot closer to being facts than your not established facts, and you’re therefore obviously trying to cover up the fact you’re talking out of your ass (i.e., your claim that that his slowly walking to his car caused suspicion of PCP use) by claiming that I’m talking out of my ass. #doesn’tfoolanyone 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8932 "2016-09-23T17:40:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This is not, at the present moment, a “fact”. It is if he defines facts as things as he wants them to be. I’ve actually had conservatives say that to me when I point out fact-free memes they repeat. “Well, if it’s not true, it should be.” ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8933 "2016-09-23T17:42:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > My not established facts are a lot closer to being facts than your not established facts, and you’re therefore obviously trying to cover up the fact you’re talking out of your ass (i.e., your claim that that his slowly walking to his car caused suspicion of PCP use) by claiming that I’m talking out of my ass. #doesn’tfoolanyone > > 😃 You saw [this](http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/22/us/tulsa-officer-charged/index.html?adkey=bn) though, right? From the DA: > [@](#): > > The criminal complaint against Shelby said her “fear resulted in her unreasonable actions which led her to shooting” Crutcher. She is accused of “unlawfully and unnecessarily” shooting Crutcher after he did not comply with her “lawful orders.” Also of note upthread was that none of the other 3 officers, all within close proximity and presumably with the same view of the situation, drew their guns. One of them drew and fired a taser. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8934 "2016-09-23T17:45:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > My not established facts… An easier way to say that would be" suppositions" or “fiction”, whereas a longer but more accurate way to put it would be “talking out of my ass”. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8935 "2016-09-23T17:57:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, my point was that this is not a serious request. You know perfectly well that it is legal. You’re just trolling. Not trolling at all. I want you to specify which law exactly allows use of force and determines the conditions for its use. I’m not saying it is illegal. You’re insisting the shooting was entirely legal. Her superiors disagree. I’m asking you to cite a specific law that governs such things. Because without such a law, it is all procedural and without any legal basis other than that we just don’t prosecute police for their abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8936 "2016-09-23T18:01:43Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is if he defines facts as things as he wants them to be. I’ve actually had conservatives say that to me when I point out fact-free memes they repeat. “Well, if it’s not true, it should be.” You clowns might remember that it was **Czarcasm** who claimed walking back to the car allegedly indicated to the cops that he was on PCP. What I said was that it was his previous behavior and not his walking back to the car that indicated he was on PCP, as he almost certainly was given his history. You may want to quibble with the fact that it hasn’t been technically established yet, but it’s a distinction without a difference. Had Crutcher’s behavior been the same the encounter would have ended the same whether he was on PCP or not. [Here is one of the reasons cops are taught not to let people get back in their cars.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8oS1JuRxbQ) ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8937 "2016-09-23T18:13:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is if he defines facts as things as he wants them to be. I’ve actually had conservatives say that to me when I point out fact-free memes they repeat. “Well, if it’s not true, it should be.” Maybe she “felt” he was high on PCP? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8938 "2016-09-23T18:31:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Her judgment that he might be on PCP is backed up by the evidence. > > Regards, > Shodan Sorry, have to come back to this: Did the officer specifically say, prior to learning his history, that she suspected he might be on PCP? Specifically _PCP_? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8939 "2016-09-23T18:33:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You clowns might remember that it was **Czarcasm** who claimed walking back to the car allegedly indicated to the cops that he was on PCP. What I said was that it was his previous behavior and not his walking back to the car that indicated he was on PCP, as he almost certainly was given his history. You may want to quibble with the fact that it hasn’t been technically established yet, but it’s a distinction without a difference. Had Crutcher’s behavior been the same the encounter would have ended the same whether he was on PCP or not. > > [Here is one of the reasons cops are taught not to let people get back in their cars.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8oS1JuRxbQ) I suspect, based on your posting history, that you’re not capable of understanding the distinction, but when you say “it was his previous behavior…that indicated he was on PCP,” do you have factual evidence that the officer knew his history before shooting him? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8940 "2016-09-23T18:33:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There is a law that says police can shoot you if you are acting in a threatening manner… > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Is there such a law? If there is it should be changed. Police should only have the right to shoot if you actually are a threat, not just for acting in a threatening manner. I’m not sure what hair you’re trying to split here. How could police legitimately differentiate someone who is a threat from someone who’s not a threat, but is acting in the manner of someone who is a threat? ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/8941 "2016-09-23T18:44:26Z")
The Dinkheller video is sobering, graphic, appalling. However Dinkheller was by himself. There were 4 officers at the scene of the Crutcher shooting. Why couldn’t they have spread out? Why couldn’t one of them have shot the tires out of Crutcher’s car ? (It will be a happy day when we have angry discussions over whether the police need to compensate someone for a preemptive tire puncture). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=446) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=448)