# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 452
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9022 "2016-09-26T03:06:54Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Bwahahaha! ??? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9023 "2016-09-26T03:19:17Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Please show me the law or regulation where this justifies straight up murder by the police. > > Being high on PCP does not, under ANY law, entitle police to simple shoot you. The thing is, she didn’t shoot him as soon as she thought he was on PCP. She shot him as soon as she thought he was about to open a car door and THAT isn’t sufficient reason to shoot someone either but it wasn’t the PCP alone that did it. Frankly they should have tased him much much earlier. The helicopter pilot can be heard saying that they should have tased this guy already. I partly blame the other officers who had their tasers out for not tasing him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9024 "2016-09-26T03:21:42Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Is there such a law? If there is it should be changed. Police should only have the right to shoot if you actually are a threat, not just for acting in a threatening manner. As the Crutcher case and several other recent cases show, if you use a standard of “acting in a threatening manner” officers will sometimes shoot someone who wasn’t an actual threat. Yes but acting in a threatening manner is how a police officer might reasonably determine if someone was an actual threat. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9025 "2016-09-26T03:24:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Some in this thread are confusing his appearing to be on PCP as the reason he was shot vs. it being the reason Officer Shelby drew her gun on him in the first place. That, and his behavior once backup arrived, is the reason the rest of them drew their weapons. Crutcher was shot because he reached for the door (something every news video I’ve seen since the first day cuts away from just before it happens). Based on their training the officers perceived this as a threat. This is why one of the other officers fired his taser at the same time Shelby fired her gun. Both were reflexive actions the officers took based upon their training. The news stories I have seen either cut away before the actual shooting (which includes the moment he lowers his hands) or it shows the shootings and the fact that he had lowered his hands. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9026 "2016-09-26T03:26:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They didn’t fire at the same time, and if something as innocuous as walking calmly back to his vehicle indicated to the officers that he was on PCP, then that police force must live in a state of constant fear that 3/4 of the population are high on the stuff. Several people on the scene independently reached the conclusion that he was on something. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9027 "2016-09-26T03:28:06Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Have you ever taken it? > > Yes, it gets you higher than kite. You definitely feel different. But you are not _numb_. What kind of fun would _numb_ be? > > When they say ‘feeling no pain’, they mean feeling really good. You would still know if someone shot you. It would still hurt and would likely harsh your mellow. No, I’ve never taken it. I have only read descriptions of its effects as an analgesic and anesthetic. I have read that the reason the call it angel dust is because you can’t really feel your feet hit the floor when you walk so you feel like you are floating, like an angel. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9028 "2016-09-26T03:28:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > ??? Recent history shows that police officers do not get convicted of misdeeds. Very often, the DA will not even prosecute. This woman will not be indicted in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9029 "2016-09-26T03:30:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! I love how you’re already trying to shift the blame for their actions away from the officers. It’s as if you know they fucked up but you’re trying hard to excuse the officers anyway: “It was their training. It’s the fault of the training, not the officers; they were just doing what they were trained to do.” :rolleyes: Officers are probably not trained to shoot people for reaching for a door handle. That is why she can’t get away from a manslaughter charge. There is simply no imminence to the threat posed by a guy that is still outside his car. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9030 "2016-09-26T03:33:36Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Only one officer had her gun aimed at Crutcher. The others had their tasers pointed at him. They were smart. She was reckless. > > Notice how no one is condemning the officers for having their tasers out? If a crazy person is acting crazy, then yeah, restrain him so you can at least take him to the hospital and figure out what the hell is up with him. > > But killing him? There’s no excuse for that level of force in this situation. > > **Shodan** , Officer Shelby had no idea that Crutcher was high on anything when she shot him. Yes, he was acting bizarrely, but you can act bizarre without being on an illegal drug (and you can act bizarre while on a [legally prescribed drug](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/ambien-side-effect-sleepwalking-sleep-aid_n_4589743.html)). And I’m not inclined to believe he was high on anything until we get the toxicology report back. She might have had her gun out because she was the first officer on the scene. It is standard for lone officers to have their gun out instead of their taser. Tasers are for when you have the luxury of back up that is pointing their guns at the suspect. IOW, the other officers might have had their tasers out BECAUSE Shelby already had her gun out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9031 "2016-09-26T03:35:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Meanwhile, there continue to be controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians; [this one is from Phoenix, AZ:](Have you seen this yet? [If You Vote For Trump, Then Screw You | GQ](http://www.gq.com/story/a-word-for-donald-trump-voters))So props to Chief Yahner on this one for being on top of the situation, even if I wish he’d have fired them. Allowing a bad cop to resign and thus have their record remain unblemished (enabling them to find new employment as LEOs) strikes me as no different than the Catholic Church shuffling pedo priests around to new parishes. You can’t really fire them until after the investigation. If they get convicted of a felony, they can’t get a job as LEO. They might be able to plead it down to something acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9032 "2016-09-26T03:44:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Several people on the scene independently reached the conclusion that he was on something. cite? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9033 "2016-09-26T03:49:14Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No matter how much I try, I can’t get this [image](http://ll-media.tmz.com/2016/09/23/0923-crime-scene-arrest-photo-charlotte-mecklenburg-police-3.jpg) to jibe with the one at 1:49 in [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WcX2cUeLOw&ab_channel=Agent22817) video. Why would it have to jibe with 1:49? I had read that he might have had a gun in an ankle holster (obviously not a threat to the police). They might have ripped off his pants and emptied his pockets and pulled the firearm out of his ankle holster (along with the wallet on the ground next to him). I can’t tell what could have precipitated the gunfire from any of the videos I have seen. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9034 "2016-09-26T04:07:08Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > cite? The helicopter guy says it right after saying he was a “bad dude” he says “probably on something” Officer Shelby also determined that he was on PCP. Other officers noted his apparent discombobulation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9035 "2016-09-26T04:09:44Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Recent history shows that police officers do not get convicted of misdeeds. Very often, the DA will not even prosecute. This woman will not be indicted in the first place. The standard is IMMINENT threat. Unless, as Elucidator said, the suspect was going to rip off the door and throw it at the cops. IMHO, the guys witht asers should have tasered him as soon as he reached his car door. A threat of a threat is enough for tasering imho. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9036 "2016-09-26T04:29:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Officer Shelby also determined that he was on PCP. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9037 "2016-09-26T04:37:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The helicopter guy says it right after saying he was a “bad dude” he says “probably on something” Officer Shelby also determined that he was on PCP. Other officers noted his apparent discombobulation. cite? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9038 "2016-09-26T06:08:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The helicopter guy says it right after saying he was a “bad dude” he says “probably on something” What-the-fuck-ever, man. The helicopter dude was, at best, 60 feet above the scene, once they got there. Are you seriously going to cite him as a legitimate judge of the situation? No, fuck that noise. We have officer Shelby saying that he looked like a guy on PCP, so everyone follows her lead, because she was the first one there. Disoriented person? What ethnicity is he? Oh, well then, we should take him down hard, because we are police: everything looks like a nail. Sorry, but this shit has become police officers escalating the situation based on, who knows, nigras I guess. Their job should be de-escalation, but their behavior has indicates they are doing the opposite. That is the thing that needs to be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9039 "2016-09-26T06:54:22Z")
Bullshit. He left his car running in the middle of the street and way over the center line. He was reported by 911 callers to be on the side of the road and acting strangely. When Officer Shelby arrived, she looked for occupants in the back seat and secured the car. Crutcher began to approach her from the side of the road. She asked if it was his car. He answered incoherently and began moving toward her with his hand in his pocket. She asked him to take his hands out of his pockets. She got into her car and asked for backup. While in the car he began approaching her from the passenger side of the car, once again putting his hands in his pockets. In accordance with her training she assessed him as being high on PCP. Being alone and faced with a much larger man who kept behaving bizarrely and refusing to follow her lawful commands, she drew her weapon. Crutcher then began walking slowly toward his vehicle with his hands in the air, defying her commands and those of the officers who were arriving and coming up behind her to render assistance. Upon arriving at the driver’s door he turn and reached for what appeared to me to be the door handle. At that moment both a taser and Officer Shelby’s gun were fired. I agree that he should not have been shot, but then I haven’t been trained by having watched videos as to how quickly a person can reach into a car, grab a gun from inside, and and start firing. So maybe he should have been. But there’s no question it was his attempt to open the door that got him tased and shot. It had nothing to do with his ethnicity (and how come in some of these shootings the cop is a black guy and we still hear this shit?). It had nothing to do with taking him down “hard”. He was a guy behaving unpredictably and uncooperatively and apparently under the influence of a powerful drug. The cops held off and yelled at him repeatedly to stop what he was doing and fired only when in their view and according to their training a potentially deadly threat developed. I asked upthread as to exactly how the situation could possibly have been de-escalated and got crickets in response. Perhaps you’d care to take a crack at it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9040 "2016-09-26T09:16:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The helicopter guy says it right after saying he was a “bad dude” he says “probably on something” Officer Shelby also determined that he was on PCP. Other officers noted his apparent discombobulation. “he’s on something” “he’s going for my gun” “he’s got a gun” “he was very threatening” “he was not complying with my orders” “exculpatory statement I make every time I’m actually the one doing something wrong” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9041 "2016-09-26T09:22:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Bullshit. He left his car running in the middle of the street and way over the center line. He was reported by 911 callers to be on the side of the road and acting strangely. When Officer Shelby arrived, she looked for occupants in the back seat and secured the car. Crutcher began to approach her from the side of the road. She asked if it was his car. He answered incoherently and began moving toward her with his hand in his pocket. She asked him to take his hands out of his pockets. She got into her car and asked for backup. While in the car he began approaching her from the passenger side of the car, once again putting his hands in his pockets. In accordance with her training she assessed him as being high on PCP. Being alone and faced with a much larger man who kept behaving bizarrely and refusing to follow her lawful commands, she drew her weapon. Crutcher then began walking slowly toward his vehicle with his hands in the air, defying her commands and those of the officers who were arriving and coming up behind her to render assistance. Upon arriving at the driver’s door he turn and reached for what appeared to me to be the door handle. At that moment both a taser and Officer Shelby’s gun were fired. > > I agree that he should not have been shot, but then I haven’t been trained by having watched videos as to how quickly a person can reach into a car, grab a gun from inside, and and start firing. So maybe he should have been. But there’s no question it was his attempt to open the door that got him tased and shot. It had nothing to do with his ethnicity (and how come in some of these shootings the cop is a black guy and we still hear this shit?). It had nothing to do with taking him down “hard”. > > He was a guy behaving unpredictably and uncooperatively and apparently under the influence of a powerful drug. The cops held off and yelled at him repeatedly to stop what he was doing and fired only when in their view and according to their training a potentially deadly threat developed. > > I asked upthread as to exactly how the situation could possibly have been de-escalated and got crickets in response. Perhaps you’d care to take a crack at it. Your post is mostly the same bullshit you’ve been pedaling for pages and pages now, but I’ll tackle your question: the cops could have not done any of the things they did. They could have not tased him, not shot him, not decided he was a threat to begin with. They could have sought information rather than compliance. They could have acted like they cared about Mr. Crutcher, for just a few minutes, more than they cared about getting home on time. They could have acted like the public servants they are supposed to be. That’s some of things the cops could have done to de-escalate things. Now go crawl back in your paper towel tube, you fucking cretin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=451) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=453)