# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 453
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9042 "2016-09-26T11:25:43Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I think that it should now be a “civic duty” for people to video interactions between cops and the general public. The last time I was on Pittsburgh’s SouthSide, I walked up on police talking to two dudes. I got my phone out and began filming (in landscape orientation) in case anything of note happened. While I was filming, I looked around and realized several other people were doing the same thing! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9043 "2016-09-26T12:28:53Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > We have officer Shelby saying that he looked like a guy on PCP, so everyone follows her lead, because she was the first one there. Sorry to keep asking this, but do you have a source saying Shelby identified PCP use prior to the shooting? I keep asking this question but everyone I ask keeps changing the subject. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9044 "2016-09-26T15:06:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …I agree that he should not have been shot, but then I haven’t been trained by having watched videos as to how quickly a person can reach into a car, grab a gun from inside, and and start firing… Try it. Remember, you gotta walk _around_ the door you just opened to reach inside, retrieve the weapon, and bring it to bear. Before someone can pull a trigger. So, try it. Take one for the team **SA**! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9045 "2016-09-26T15:31:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Try it. Remember, you gotta walk _around_ the door you just opened to reach inside, retrieve the weapon, and bring it to bear. Before someone can pull a trigger. So, try it. Take one for the team **SA**! For extra difficulty you can’t actually have a weapon in the car. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9046 "2016-09-26T15:44:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Sorry to keep asking this, but do you have a source saying Shelby identified PCP use prior to the shooting? I keep asking this question but everyone I ask keeps changing the subject. [Her side of the story](http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-police-officer-shares-side-story-terence-crutchers/story?id=42243843), > [@](#): > > Shelby tried to get Crutcher to talk to her, but he simply mumbled something unintelligible and stared at her, Wood said. He then turned and walked to the edge of the roadway and turned to look at her, his hands still in the air, Wood said. He put his hands down and started to reach into his pocket again, Wood said, and she ordered him again to get his hands out of his pocket. > > At this point, Shelby, a drug recognition expert, believed Crutcher was “on something,” Wood said, possibly PCP. > > Shelby then radioed in that she had a subject “who is not following commands.” Which I find kind of troubling. He would not talk to her: _bad, bad man_; not following orders: at what point is a person absolutely required to comply with police? If they say, “come here, I want to talk to you,” what happens if you do not? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9047 "2016-09-26T15:45:36Z")
“He’s on something, better shoot him.” Great response to a potential medical crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9048 "2016-09-26T15:55:47Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > [Her side of the story](http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-police-officer-shares-side-story-terence-crutchers/story?id=42243843), > > > [@](#): > > > > Shelby tried to get Crutcher to talk to her, but he simply mumbled something unintelligible and stared at her, Wood said. He then turned and walked to the edge of the roadway and turned to look at her, his hands still in the air, Wood said. He put his hands down and started to reach into his pocket again, Wood said, and she ordered him again to get his hands out of his pocket. > > > > At this point, Shelby, a drug recognition expert, believed Crutcher was “on something,” Wood said, possibly PCP. > > > > Shelby then radioed in that she had a subject “who is not following commands.” > > Which I find kind of troubling. He would not talk to her: _bad, bad man_; not following orders: at what point is a person absolutely required to comply with police? If they say, “come here, I want to talk to you,” what happens if you do not? To be clear, the statement: At this point, Shelby, a drug recognition expert, believed Crutcher was “on something,” Wood said, possibly PCP. was made by her attorney, several days after the shooting, and after Crutcher’s history of PCP usage was known. I noticed it also has several weasel words in it, such as “possibly PCP,” probably because they didn’t want to be too definitive in case he turned out not to be on PCP. Is there any evidence that Shelby actually suspected PCP _prior_ to shooting him? Was anything said over the radio, or in her official statement before Crutcher’s history was known? I guess a similar question would be: what _specific_ behavior of Crutcher’s was indicative of PCP, and not to any other intoxicants or brain trauma or medical incident? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9049 "2016-09-26T15:57:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > He was a Turkish immigrant who the police initially suspected was Hispanic. > > Are you arguing that the police in Washington Stats consider Hispanics and Middle Easterners to be white? Part of Turkey is Europe. And when I saw the security image, he looked more Caucasian than Hispanic (note that the Caucasus mountains are closer to Turkey than they are to any other part of Europe). So, yes, hispanics, brown as they are, are not _black_. Arab-like and Persian folks may have dark-ish skin, but they are _not black_. Even Samoans and Chinese are treated better than African-Americans. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9050 "2016-09-26T16:06:56Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > [Her side of the story](http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-police-officer-shares-side-story-terence-crutchers/story?id=42243843) The problem with this, of course, is that it’s her side of the story _after_ they searched the car and (allegedly) found PCP. So, is this really what happened, or is it the story we’re getting that sounds as damning as possible given the other available evidence? No real way to know. We’d know so much more if she hadn’t _turned off_ her car’s video camera. > [@](#): > > Which I find kind of troubling. He would not talk to her: _bad, bad man_; not following orders: at what point is a person absolutely required to comply with police? If they say, “come here, I want to talk to you,” what happens if you do not? Probably depends greatly on the command and the officer. If you refuse to do something and just stay still, you’re much less threatening than if you are moving toward the officer and refuse to stop. I highly recommend complying with anyone who has a gun drawn on you, whether or not they are police. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9051 "2016-09-26T17:12:59Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > The problem with this, of course, is that it’s her side of the story _after_ they searched the car and (allegedly) found PCP. So, is this really what happened, or is it the story we’re getting that sounds as damning as possible given the other available evidence? No real way to know. Well, one of the officers in the helicopter, and one of the 911 callers, also mentioned that Crutcher looked like he was on drugs. > [@](#): > > I highly recommend complying with anyone who has a gun drawn on you, whether or not they are police. Oh, you’re no fun. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9052 "2016-09-26T17:27:21Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I highly recommend complying with anyone who has a gun drawn on you, whether or not they are police. And if, while you are complying, the cop repeatedly shouts, “STOP RESISTING”? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9053 "2016-09-26T18:14:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, one of the officers in the helicopter, and one of the 911 callers, also mentioned that Crutcher looked like he was on drugs. Could you clarify which of Crutcher’s specific behaviors would indicate PCP rather than diabetic shock or alcohol intoxication? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9054 "2016-09-26T18:40:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Your post is mostly the same bullshit you’ve been pedaling for pages and pages now, but I’ll tackle your question: the cops could have not done any of the things they did. They could have not tased him, not shot him, not decided he was a threat to begin with. They could have sought information rather than compliance. They could have acted like they cared about Mr. Crutcher, for just a few minutes, more than they cared about getting home on time. They could have acted like the public servants they are supposed to be. That’s some of things the cops could have done to de-escalate things. > > Now go crawl back in your paper towel tube, you fucking cretin. They had a car in the middle of the road that was blocking traffic from both directions. They had an out of it guy on the side of the road who couldn’t/wasn’t speaking intelligibly, wasn’t following orders, was behaving bizarrely and kept putting his hands in his pockets. Shelby had to get him under control so he wouldn’t be a traffic hazard at the very least. She had to find out if it was his car or whether he had been a passenger and the driver was still unaccounted for. Etc., etc., etc. In other words, she couldn’t just not do nothing. So given the fact he couldn’t or wouldn’t speak and therefore couldn’t provide any information about who owned the car or why it was sitting in the middle of the road with its engine running, and given that he kept alternately raising his hands and putting his hands in his pockets and refusing/not recognizing her commands, she radioed for backup and drew her gun. Simultaneous with the arrival of the backup officers, Crutcher began walking to his car. The backup officers had to scurry to catch up as he arrived at the car. He reached for the door and that’s when he was simultaneously tased and shot. So as much as you’d like to argue that they should have just let the situation drag on endlessly and allowed him to roam the countryside as long as he saw fit, the reality is they needed to find out if he had a weapon in his pockets and whether anyone else was nearby, either hiding from the cops or wounded/dead and lying in a field somewhere, neither of which could be accomplished had he been allowed to continue to approach the officer[s] in a bizarre and potentially threatening way or to wander at will on or beside the road. > [@elucidator](#): > > Try it. Remember, you gotta walk around the door you just opened to reach inside, retrieve the weapon, and bring it to bear. Before someone can pull a trigger. I’ve opened car doors thousands of times and never once had to walk around one to get in. You simply stand aside as the door opens, then you reach inside and pull out a pistol. Then by the time the cops recognize and spot the pistol and begin firing, the bad guy is firing too and you wind up with shot cops and shot bad guys. > [@Chimera](#): > > “He’s on something, better shoot him.” > > Great response to a potential medical crisis. He wasn’t shot for being on something and you know it. Or at least you should, but given the bizarre nature of your own posts I’ll point it out again: He wasn’t shot for being on something, _he was shot for trying to get into the car!_ Had he not done that or engaged in any other threatening behavior he wouldn’t have been shot. > [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > We’d know so much more if she hadn’t turned _off_ her car’s video camera. Did she turn it off, or simply not turn it on due to her focus being on a large and uncooperative suspect who was behaving in a bizarre and threatening manner? I would imagine that if you’ve gotten back into your car to radio for help and you perhaps have a gun in one hand and a microphone in the other and your eyes locked on a suspect who may be pulling a gun or knife out of his pocket at any moment, concerns about turning on your video camera may be pretty far down on your list of immediate priorities. > [@kayaker](#): > > And if, while you are complying, the cop repeatedly shouts, “STOP RESISTING”? Yeah, that’s bullshit and shouldn’t happen. But I’ve never heard of it happening to anyone who complies from the beginning. It seems to have always been after the suspect has already resisted or led the cops on a chase that such abuse takes place. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9055 "2016-09-26T19:05:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, that’s bullshit and shouldn’t happen. But I’ve never heard of it happening to anyone who complies from the beginning. It seems to have always been after the suspect has already resisted or led the cops on a chase that such abuse takes place. Why are caveats like this ever necessary? Police brutality is always wrong, whether or not a suspect tried to run, or resisted at first, or whatever. It just makes it seems like you’ll go out of your way to excuse bad behavior from police, but you’ll never give an inch of benefit of the doubt for a suspect/perp/person of interest who might be confused and/or terrified. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9056 "2016-09-26T19:15:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Shelby had to get him under control so he wouldn’t be a traffic hazard at the very least. Shooting him certainly accomplished that. By the way, why was Shelby the only officer who felt the need to shoot him? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9057 "2016-09-26T19:20:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But I’ve never heard of it happening to anyone who complies from the beginning. It seems to have always been after the suspect has already resisted or led the cops on a chase that such abuse takes place. Yeah, except that you’ve repeatedly been provided links of people shot while cooperating. Care to explain that? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9058 "2016-09-26T19:26:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why are caveats like this ever necessary? Police brutality is always wrong, whether or not a suspect tried to run, or resisted at first, or whatever. It just makes it seems like you’ll go out of your way to excuse bad behavior from police, but you’ll never give an inch of benefit of the doubt for a suspect/perp/person of interest who might be confused and/or terrified. Well, first of all I said such behavior was bullshit and that it shouldn’t happen. And second of all, I pretty much reject completely your thesis that terror of the cops is why suspects flee or fight with them. (And in fact, most bad guys, though the use of threat or weapons, use terror to _gain_ compliance, do they not?) If someone is doing something seriously illegal and chooses to run from/fight with the cops, I’d wager almost any amount that a desire to escape the legal consequences of their behavior is why they flee or resist. And by the time a scenario like you’ve mentioned before where someone is confused by multiple cops yelling multiple instructions, they’ve already done something serious enough to draw the attention of that many cops in the first place, and it’s often at the end of a harrowing chase. In other words, you don’t usually get half a dozen cops yelling at you to get on the ground, spread your legs, put your hands up, etc., all because you had a broken tail light. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9059 "2016-09-26T19:31:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In other words, you don’t usually get half a dozen cops yelling at you to get on the ground, spread your legs, put your hands up, etc., all because you had a broken tail light. Correct, but I’m an old white guy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9060 "2016-09-26T19:32:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In other words, you don’t usually get half a dozen cops yelling at you to get on the ground, spread your legs, put your hands up, etc., all because you had a broken tail light. The problem is when you _do_ have a half dozen cops shouting all those different things at you at the same time, making it impossible to obey everyone’s contradictory instructions at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9061 "2016-09-26T19:35:37Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > By the way, why was Shelby the only officer who felt the need to shoot him? A) Suspect behaves bizarrely and threateningly. Officer draws gun and radios for help. B) Suspect begins walking toward his car. Officer with gun begins following, repeatedly yelling instructions to stop as the suspect continues walking toward the car. C) Backup cops arrive and hurry to catch up with suspect and Officer Shelby. Seeing that he’s not cooperating and having been advised he’s likely on PCP, they draw their tasers in case he needs to be brought down. D) Suspect arrives at car door and despite numerous warnings attempts to open the car door. He is then simultaneous shot by both Officer Shelby’s gun and another officer’s taser. Is there anything else that anybody is unclear on now that we’ve rehashed the episode a couple dozen times or so by now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=452) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=454)