# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 454
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9062 "2016-09-26T19:38:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > A) Suspect behaves bizarrely and threateningly. Officer draws gun and radios for help. What threatening behavior did the suspect exhibit at this point in time? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9063 "2016-09-26T19:39:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …I’ve opened car doors thousands of times and never once had to walk around one to get in. You simply stand aside as the door opens, then you reach inside and pull out a pistol. Then by the time the cops recognize and spot the pistol and begin firing, the bad guy is firing too and you wind up with shot cops and shot bad guys… OK, dully noted. _Stand aside_, then reach inside, grab a gun, bring it to bear and fire before the cop… who _already_ has a gun on you!..can shoot. What time does it take to pull a trigger, tenth of a second? Less? And you’re gotta _beat_ that, Quick Draw? Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9064 "2016-09-26T19:42:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The problem is when you _do_ have a half dozen cops shouting all those different things at you at the same time, making it impossible to obey everyone’s contradictory instructions at the same time. True, but if you had complied to begin with, things wouldn’t have gotten that far. It’s been **iiandyiiii’s** contention that terror of the police or confusion as to what to do is why black guys sometimes don’t comply, and he uses the yelling of multiple instructions scenario as an example of how it can be confusing and ‘terrifying’ to comply even if one wanted to. My point is that the subject must already have refused to comply at some point or things wouldn’t have gotten to that point to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9065 "2016-09-26T19:45:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > having been advised he’s likely on PCP, Cite this please. Third time I’ve asked. > [@](#): > > He is then simultaneous shot by both Officer Shelby’s gun and another officer’s taser. Correction, he is tased first then shot by Shelby, which is why Shelby was charged with manslaughter. > [@](#): > > Is there anything else that anybody is unclear on now that we’ve rehashed the episode a couple dozen times or so by now? Well, apparently a few things still need to be cleared up. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9066 "2016-09-26T19:49:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > True, but if you had complied to begin with, things wouldn’t have gotten that far. It’s been **iiandyiiii’s** contention that terror of the police or confusion as to what to do is why black guys sometimes don’t comply, and he uses the yelling of multiple instructions scenario as an example of how it can be confusing and ‘terrifying’ to comply even if one wanted to. My point is that the subject must already have refused to comply at some point or things wouldn’t have gotten to that point to begin with. Maybe a single officer gave conflicting orders (freeze! get on the ground!); maybe the guy freezes up for a moment and doesn’t comply; maybe it takes him a few seconds to figure out what’s being ordered; etc. There are a million possibilities on why someone, especially someone who might be terrified, doesn’t comply immediately and perfectly. When cops _start_ an interaction like they’re a bully who must be obeyed _or else_, this seems like it will be a lot more likely, increasing the danger to everyone. And it never excuses brutality. Even if they were willfully disobeying – six cops beating a guy while he’s on the ground is never necessary. And from the videos in both Tulsa and Charlotte, deadly force did not appear to be warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9067 "2016-09-26T19:52:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, dully noted. _Stand aside_, then reach inside, grab a gun, bring it to bear and fire before the cop… who _already_ has a gun on you!..can shoot. What time does it take to pull a trigger, tenth of a second? Less? And you’re gotta _beat_ that, Quick Draw? > > Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! It takes a certain amount of time for human reactions to take place. A good example of this was illustrated in Steven Seagal’s cop show a few years ago. During training he stood in front of a cop who had a pistol pointed at him and he instructed the cop to fire (no ammo obviously) when Seagal moved. Seagal was able to pivot away and to the side out of the line of fire by the time the guy pulled the trigger, and then to grab the cop’s arm and pry the gun out of his hand, disarming him in the blink of an eye and before the cop being trained (i.e., the shooter) could react further. In the case of Philando Castille there would have been enough time to fire before a weapon could have been brought to bear. In Crutcher’s case there probably wouldn’t have been enough time because he’d likely have had the gun out, pointed and be firing by the time the cops could react. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9068 "2016-09-26T19:52:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > A) Suspect behaves bizarrely and threateningly. Officer draws gun and radios for help. > > B) Suspect begins walking toward his car. Officer with gun begins following, repeatedly yelling instructions to stop as the suspect continues walking toward the car. > > C) Backup cops arrive and hurry to catch up with suspect and Officer Shelby. Seeing that he’s not cooperating and having been advised he’s likely on PCP, they draw their tasers in case he needs to be brought down. > > D) Suspect arrives at car door and despite numerous warnings attempts to open the car door. He is then simultaneous shot by both Officer Shelby’s gun and another officer’s taser. > > Is there anything else that anybody is unclear on now that we’ve rehashed the episode a couple dozen times or so by now? Nice bit of writing. It would make for a great episode of a television series…but it has little to do with reality. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9069 "2016-09-26T19:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > …In other words, you don’t usually get half a dozen cops yelling at you to get on the ground, spread your legs, put your hands up, etc., all because you had a broken tail light… Funny you should mention that, we just had a guy here in Mpls shot for a broken tail light. “Funny” isn’t actually the word. > [@](#): > > …In other words, you don’t usually get half a dozen cops yelling at you… Not if you’re white. What our brown Americans are telling us is that the rules are different when you’re brown. Do you deny that? Do you even _doubt_ that? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9070 "2016-09-26T20:00:27Z")
Just to clarify something – drug recognition experts are not experts in looking at somebody on the street and deciding what they’re on. That’s sorcery, not science. Plenty of cops (plenty of people in general) would draw a conclusion like that, but that’s completely different from this officer’s expertise. I suppose it’s arguable that the officer might have had some kind of special insight into whether the person was generally impaired at all, but there’s nothing more to it than that under those circumstances. You don’t have any additional authority for an off-the-cuff diagnosis from visual observation because you’re a drug recognition expert. Drug recognition experts are people who are trained in conducting clinical examinations in a controlled environment to come to conclusions about what kind of impairment a person is exhibiting in response to a series of tests, which include stuff like checking muscle tone and seeing if the person’s eyes are capable of tracking motion. It takes a long time and involves a series of prescribed observations. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9071 "2016-09-26T20:01:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In Crutcher’s case there probably wouldn’t have been enough time because he’d likely have had the gun out, pointed and be firing by the time the cops could react. You’re confusing fantasy and reality again. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9072 "2016-09-26T20:03:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe a single officer gave conflicting orders (freeze! get on the ground!); maybe the guy freezes up for a moment and doesn’t comply; maybe it takes him a few seconds to figure out what’s being ordered; etc. There are a million possibilities on why someone, especially someone who might be terrified, doesn’t comply immediately and perfectly. When cops _start_ an interaction like they’re a bully who must be obeyed _or else_, this seems like it will be a lot more likely, increasing the danger to everyone. And so because of terror and confusion over whether he should freeze or get on the ground, he decides to physically resist in some way? Starts fighting with the cops or resisting their efforts to handcuff him, or refuses to get out of the car or drop the gun or whatever? Because these are the kinds of noncompliance that are getting people shot and not confusion over whether to freeze or get on the ground. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And it never excuses brutality. Even if they were willfully disobeying – six cops beating a guy while he’s on the ground is never necessary. And from the videos in both Tulsa and Charlotte, deadly force did not appear to be warranted. Why do people keep bringing this up? I’ve already said this kind of thing is bad and shouldn’t happen. I’ve said it two or three times now. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9073 "2016-09-26T20:06:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Funny you should mention that, we just had a guy here in Mpls shot for a broken tail light. “Funny” isn’t actually the word. Why do I suspect that he was shot for a broken tail light in the same sense that Crutcher was shot for being on PCP? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9074 "2016-09-26T20:07:30Z")
Indeed, they were _both_ black. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9075 "2016-09-26T20:07:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And so because of terror and confusion over whether he should freeze or get on the ground, he decides to physically resist in some way? Starts fighting with the cops or resisting their efforts to handcuff him, or refuses to get out of the car or drop the gun or whatever? Because these are the kinds of noncompliance that are getting people shot and not confusion over whether to freeze or get on the ground. He might pull back or jerk his hands. He might stumble. He might just not move. All those things might be interpreted by cops as “resisting”. > [@](#): > > Why do people keep bringing this up? I’ve already said this kind of thing is bad and shouldn’t happen. I’ve said it two or three times now. Because you keep saying things like “My point is that the subject must already have refused to comply at some point or things wouldn’t have gotten to that point to begin with.” That’s an excuse for brutality, whether you mean it as such for not. It doesn’t matter if Rodney King didn’t obey the cops at first – that’s a miniscule mistake compared to the brutality he experienced. His initial disobedience is nothing compared to being brutalized, and shouldn’t matter a single iota in judging the appropriateness of the actions of the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9076 "2016-09-26T20:21:01Z")
The point is that none of the people in the news lately for being shot would have been killed had they merely complied with the police’s lawful orders. (The tragic and unusual case of Philando Castille excepted.) Instead of making excuses for all this crap, the black community would be much better served by placing an emphasis on compliance rather than making the police the bad guys when law-breakers and resisters get shot. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9077 "2016-09-26T20:23:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Instead of making excuses for all this crap, the black community would be much better served by placing an emphasis on compliance rather than making the police the bad guys when law-breakers and resisters get shot. I’m not the right color to give the proper response to this. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9078 "2016-09-26T20:29:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > T > Instead of making excuses for all this crap, the black community would be much better served by placing an emphasis on compliance rather than making the police the bad guys when law-breakers and resisters get shot. Lots of police are already bad guys. They have always been bad guys who happen to have badges. Do I need to link to the Houston shooting again? This has always been happening. It’s just a thing now because people have phones that can capture video. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9079 "2016-09-26T20:31:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The point is that none of the people in the news lately for being shot would have been killed had they merely complied with the police’s lawful orders. > > (The tragic and unusual case of Philando Castille excepted.) You’re going to have to except a lot of other cases. How about Charles Kinsey? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9080 "2016-09-26T20:36:15Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The point is that none of the people in the news lately for being shot would have been killed had they merely complied with the police’s lawful orders. Next time I’m incoherent on the floor from hypoglycemia, I’ll try to remember that. Dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9081 "2016-09-26T20:39:33Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What-the-fuck-ever, man. The helicopter dude was, at best, 60 feet above the scene, once they got there. Are you seriously going to cite him as a legitimate judge of the situation? No, fuck that noise. We have officer Shelby saying that he looked like a guy on PCP, so everyone follows her lead, because she was the first one there. Well, it seems you’ve already made up your mind about what the facts are. By your reasoning no one but the first person on the scene could make an independent judgment because everyone else is just following the first person’s lead. > [@](#): > > Disoriented person? What ethnicity is he? Oh, well then, we should take him down hard, because we are police: everything looks like a nail. One. ONE cop shot him. That cops is currently being charged with first degree manslaughter. > [@](#): > > Sorry, but this shit has become police officers escalating the situation based on, who knows, nigras I guess. Their job should be de-escalation, but their behavior has indicates they are doing the opposite. That is the thing that needs to be fixed. Police shoot about 1000 people every year. How many of those do you think follow this pattern? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=453) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=455)