# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 461
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9202 "2016-09-29T15:40:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In response to **MikeF** : The consequences for even the mildest form of noncompliance seem much more serious for black people, and the bar for what is considered not complying, and what is considered dangerous and threatening, seems much lower. That’s the problem, at least as protesters and BLM-supporters believe. They may seem that way but at least one study (not yet peer reviewed) seems to indicate that while blacks encounter more police brutality, they don’t get shot much more often than similarly situated whites. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9203 "2016-09-29T15:42:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Duke:** > > Clearly, you are making an effort to be more reasonable. Good, of course. > > But you are kinda confusing. You say “… protests have devolved into riots in most other cities…” But in the next paragraph, its “…sure, protests can turn into riots now and then…”. Which, to my ear, sounds like it is the riots that are the exception, the extraordinary. Whereas the first quote posits riots to be the rule, rather than the exception. > > Can you clarify? There’s no excuse for riots and excusing them is just as bad as good cops lying for bad cops. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9204 "2016-09-29T15:42:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We as a society imbue the police with police power. That means they get to tell us what to do under threat of force. And when that ‘allowed use of force’ is far too often used as a death penalty for non-compliance? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9205 "2016-09-29T15:48:56Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And when that ‘allowed use of force’ is far too often used as a death penalty for non-compliance? Far too often? Cops killed about 1000 people last year. How many of those deaths do you think were not justified based on a reasonable perception of imminent threat? ---
**Author:** ![quimper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7c8e57/32.png) [@quimper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quimper)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9206 "2016-09-29T15:49:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There’s no excuse for riots The hell you say. > [@](#): > > just as bad as good cops lying for bad cops Now you’re just making shit up ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9207 "2016-09-29T16:00:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They may seem that way but at least one study (not yet peer reviewed) seems to indicate that while blacks encounter more police brutality, they don’t get shot much more often than similarly situated whites. I’ve seen other studies that indicated that they did, but police departments still aren’t releasing all their data on shootings (if they even maintain it). Until we mandate that all police departments record data on shootings, including race, and save and release videos to the public, then we may not be able to have a conclusive study. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9208 "2016-09-29T16:06:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Far too often? > > Cops killed about 1000 people last year. How many of those deaths do you think were not justified based on a reasonable perception of imminent threat? How many people need to be unjustly killed before you start to care? For me it’s a pretty low number. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9209 "2016-09-29T16:24:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Cite? I see where PCP is being cited as a reason for drawing a weapon. But the reason he was shot was because of what he did, not what he was on. I think the taser shot was justified (and frankly overdue) and the gunshot was not justified. YMMV. For what? Being large and black? His car stalled. His only crime was not complying with an officer, when he did nothing wrong. Nothing about that entire encounter was justified. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9210 "2016-09-29T16:26:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Far too often? > > Cops killed about 1000 people last year. How many of those deaths do you think were not justified based on a reasonable perception of imminent threat? Here’s why I, personally, get upset about it. Any one of those deaths _could have been_ a friend of mine. Or me. \*\* And I do not think an attitude of ‘do whatever the police officer tells you so as you don’t get shot’ is reasonable or acceptable. [sub]\*\* This is what the other side is having trouble with. They believe that it can never happen to them or theirs. They are mistaken.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9211 "2016-09-29T16:47:27Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Here’s why I, personally, get upset about it. Any one of those deaths _could have been_ a friend of mine. Or me. \*\* > > And I do not think an attitude of ‘do whatever the police officer tells you so as you don’t get shot’ is reasonable or acceptable. > > [sub]\*\* This is what the other side is having trouble with. They believe that it can never happen to them or theirs. They are mistaken.[/sub] I’m a middle aged white guy with no criminal history. Even my last speeding ticket was almost a decade ago. I still get nervous around cops. If the cop just happens to be having a bad day, and wants to take it out on me, there’s not much I can do about it. He could give me tickets and fines for stuff that I didn’t do, as it is his word against mine. He could decide to get abusive with me, both verbally, and possibly even physically, and I still would have no recourse. If he told me to strip naked on the side of the road, according to the legal scholars on here, I would be required to follow his instructions, and maybe, later in court, get a chance to complain about my treatment. So yeah, even as the most boring person the cop will encounter this week, he still has the ability to cause a great deal of harm and humiliation to me, leaving me absolutely no recourse for my own safety and dignity. I really can’t imagine what it would be like to be black and have an interaction with the police, I would probably be terrified. Of course, being scared of the cop raises suspicion, raises the perceived “threat”, making it all the more likely that things go south. This is when people get arrested for doing nothing. This is when people get beaten for sitting on their own porch. This is when people get shot because they somehow didn’t manage to appease the officer enough that the cop felt safe enough to leave them alive. This thread isn’t just about the shootings. You don’t have to kill a man in order to degrade, injure, and humiliate him for no good reason, and I have seen that happen quite enough as well. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9212 "2016-09-29T17:34:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And when that ‘allowed use of force’ is far too often used as a death penalty for non-compliance? Still with this nonsense, huh? They aren’t shot for non-compliance; they’re shot for threatening behavior. > [@Evil Economist](#): > > Hey, I see you’re still actively posting in this thread. I’ve asked you like 4 times for a cite that, prior to the shooting, Shelby identified that Crutcher was using PCP, a claim which you have repeatedly made. Please provide the cite or admit you were wrong. Thanks. Nope, not gonna do either, thanks. It’s been talked about in this very thread, by me and **Shodan** at least. I’m not gonna waste time looking up stuff because you haven’t kept up with the thread. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9213 "2016-09-29T17:39:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Still with this nonsense, huh? > > They aren’t shot for non-compliance; they’re shot for threatening behavior. Like the care-giver for the autistic guy? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9214 "2016-09-29T17:41:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Still with this nonsense, huh? > > They aren’t shot for non-compliance; they’re shot for threatening behavior. > > Nope, not gonna do either, thanks. It’s been talked about in this very thread, by me and **Shodan** at least. I’m not gonna waste time looking up stuff because you haven’t kept up with the thread. Yep, people _have_ asked you for a cite before-we don’t need you to cite all the times you’ve refused to answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9215 "2016-09-29T17:45:20Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Still with this nonsense, huh? > > They aren’t shot for non-compliance; they’re shot for threatening behavior. But, as you have said that non-compliance IS threatening behavior, what exactly is the distinction that you are trying to make? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9216 "2016-09-29T17:46:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > They aren’t shot for non-compliance; they’re shot for threatening behavior. Such as; Not following instructions Being Black Being on drugs Existing (I dunno what else can you call it when the cops roll up and open fire in seconds?) Yup, buncha fucking cowards who enjoy killing people and look for every opportunity to claim they were being threatened, which justifies another notch in their pistol grip. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9217 "2016-09-29T17:53:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But, as you have said that non-compliance IS threatening behavior, what exactly is the distinction that you are trying to make? No, non-compliance is refusing to identify yourself. Non-compliance is refusing to sit on the curb. Non-compliance is refusing to get out of the car. Non-compliance is refusing to submit to being handcuffed. Threatening behavior is reaching inside your car, refusing to drop your gun, reaching for a pocket when you’ve been told not to, etc. These are quite different things. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9218 "2016-09-29T18:02:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is some evidence that cops do not shoot blacks more frequently than they shoot whites (after adjusting for variables). I’d like to see a cite, where the “variable being adjusted for” focuses on unnecessary killings of people posing no threat, murders where the only explanation for the police behavior is racism or cowardice. Yes, we can read the stats and know many whites are killed by cops. But many or most of those whites were brandishing real guns, not toys or vaping devices. When we read news stories about these cowardly killings of innocents by police, the victims’ race is Black, Black, Black, Black, Black, Black, Black, Black, Black, Black. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9219 "2016-09-29T18:14:31Z")
When the ‘good’ cops lie for the bad cops, the lie becomes the official record. Then it will not figure in to your stats about bad shootings. Remember, we only get these stories because there was video captured by 3rd parties. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9220 "2016-09-29T18:33:57Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > When the ‘good’ cops lie for the bad cops, the lie becomes the official record. Then it will not figure in to your stats about bad shootings. > > Remember, we only get these stories because there was video captured by 3rd parties. I guess police apologists think that’s part of the problem. Without contradicting evidence, all the shoots would be good. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9221 "2016-09-29T18:45:09Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Such as; > > Not following instructions > Being Black > Being on drugs > Existing (I dunno what else can you call it when the cops roll up and open fire in seconds?) > > Yup, buncha fucking cowards who enjoy killing people and look for every opportunity to claim they were being threatened, which justifies another notch in their pistol grip. How’s the view there, from around the bend? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=460) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=462)