# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 462
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9222 "2016-09-29T18:55:49Z")
You look forward, around the bend, there we are. We look backward, around the same bend, there you are. We don’t look back, all that much. So it works. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9223 "2016-09-29T19:13:40Z")
Well, now, **luci** , if you want to claim the kind of over-emotional, unthinking nonsense **Chimera** (and now **Septimus** ) has been spewing throughout this thread as forward-thinking, I’ll happily stake out a claim here behind you where people retain the ability to think straight. For my money though you’ve got it backwards. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9224 "2016-09-29T19:16:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nope, not gonna do either, thanks. It’s been talked about in this very thread, by me and **Shodan** at least. I’m not gonna waste time looking up stuff because you haven’t kept up with the thread. I have fully kept up with the thread, and it has \*\*not \*\*been cited. Now, you can ignore the request, and that will say something about you. You have the opportunity here to live down to your reputation or perhaps improve it. Your call. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9225 "2016-09-29T19:23:24Z")
Okay, my call is that it’s already been talked about and referenced so look it up yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9226 "2016-09-29T19:26:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, now, **luci** , if you want to claim the kind of over-emotional, unthinking nonsense **Chimera** (and now **Septimus** ) has been spewing throughout this thread as forward-thinking, I’ll happily stake out a claim here behind you where people retain the ability to think straight. For my money though you’ve got it backwards. I’m only too happy to be on record as disagreeing with a man who thinks it appropriate for a police officer to gun a man down the moment she ‘determines’ that he’s on PCP and looks like he might get back in his car. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9227 "2016-09-29T19:27:19Z")
See what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9228 "2016-09-29T19:28:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Okay, my call is that it’s already been talked about and referenced so look it up yourself. You’re wrong. Do you care about being wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9229 "2016-09-29T19:32:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > See what I mean? Yes, you think I’m an idiot and around the bend because I’m arguing that police should not have the right to shoot people in those circumstances and they should be held to a higher standard of behavior than we are seeing. I think we all (or most of us, anyway) get that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9230 "2016-09-29T19:44:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, my call is that it’s already been talked about and referenced so look it up yourself. Well, he said he answered, so that settles it! Playing Starkerball is kinda like Calvinball, but without the fun. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9231 "2016-09-29T19:58:46Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Depends on whether the video supports the police story or contradicts it. If it supports their story, it will be released. If it contradicts it, they’ll do everything they can to prevent it from being released. I assumed the still had been a photo. I was wrong. The police have a video and released only a single frame. One single frame. Can’t help but wonder why. [http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/calif-police-took-1-hour-to-respond-1-minute-to-fatally-shoot-refugee/ar-BBwNlVQ](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/calif-police-took-1-hour-to-respond-1-minute-to-fatally-shoot-refugee/ar-BBwNlVQ) > [@](#): > > “They’re cherry-picking part of the video,” Gilleon said. “This is exactly what police have said is unfair when only portions of video are released against them.” > > Mayor Bill Wells said he had seen the video and that it was not “tremendously complicated to figure out what happened.” ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9232 "2016-09-29T20:08:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, non-compliance is refusing to identify yourself. Non-compliance is refusing to sit on the curb. Non-compliance is refusing to get out of the car. Non-compliance is refusing to submit to being handcuffed. > > Threatening behavior is reaching inside your car, refusing to drop your gun, reaching for a pocket when you’ve been told not to, etc. > > These are quite different things. If I’ve done nothing wrong, am not suspected of doing anything wrong, and am not aggressive in any way, why am I required to comply? If I haven’t done anything wrong, and I’m not suspected of doing anything wrong, you (the officer) can go suck off a donkey before I show you identification. Not my responsibility, not your right, not my problem. And then there’s the story just above where the guy did what the cop told him to do, so the cop shot him. Or the man lying in the street with his hands up, explaining to police that there’s no threat, so the cop shot him. Compliance has been shown to be fatal. Does it compute why some people are literally scared for their lives when encountering police? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9233 "2016-09-29T20:12:49Z")
Well, its all about the cameras, isn’t it? Either their use and presence provoked all of this brutality… Or, this shits been going on all along and we just now are finding out about it. Which is the case our brown brothers and sisters are making to us. Absent some evidence that they are lying, I’m inclined to take their word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9234 "2016-09-29T20:17:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Far too often? > > Cops killed about 1000 people last year. How many of those deaths do you think were not justified based on a reasonable perception of imminent threat? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > How many people need to be unjustly killed before you start to care? For me it’s a pretty low number. Pretty much my answer. The number is too high, there are far too many questionable cases or outright clearly wrong shootings. We can do better, but not until we get rid of the high-fivers and the guys who say ‘do as you’re told and you won’t get hurt’. For me this is a societal issue and as I said earlier, I’m not sure precisely when we ceded this much power to the police, but it has gone too far and we need to dial it back. But you know, that’s a crazy idea, right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9235 "2016-09-29T20:20:05Z")
Most of the really good ideas start out that way. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9236 "2016-09-29T22:05:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > For my money though you’ve got it backwards. I bet your nickels still have buffalos on them, amiright? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9237 "2016-09-29T22:29:56Z")
If he’s been betting this way all his life, he most likely only has the one. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9238 "2016-09-29T22:57:01Z")
[Another guy who dies by the hand of a cop because he doesn’t comply](http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Ellis-Co-attorney-to-update-Hays-officer-involved-shooting-on-Thursday-395003511.html). This guy was white and autistic, and yet the officer is in the clear. The magic words? “He grabbed for muh gun and I got scairt!” The victim’s family is pushing for a law that will allow the police to see they’re dealing with a disabled person whenever they run their tags. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9239 "2016-09-29T23:51:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Another guy who dies by the hand of a cop because he doesn’t comply](http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Ellis-Co-attorney-to-update-Hays-officer-involved-shooting-on-Thursday-395003511.html). > > This guy was white and autistic, and yet the officer is in the clear. The magic words? “He grabbed for muh gun and I got scairt!” > > The victim’s family is pushing for a law that will allow the police to see they’re dealing with a disabled person whenever they run their tags. > [@](#): > > “The evidence, the acts, the autopsy, the physical evidence just did not bear any of that out. It’s obvious from the video and from the other statements that they were wrestling on the side, down on the concrete sidewalk when this happened,” said Drees. > Drees said dash cam video and audio recordings from the incident would not be released It’s _obvious_ from the video [sub]that will not be released[/sub] that the officer feared for his life because the suspect did not\* respect his authoritah!\*. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9240 "2016-09-30T02:43:24Z")
It’s probably unfair for more people to dogpile atop **Starving Artist**. But, **SA** , let me explain _why_ you are wrong. It’s very important, and goes directly to the heart of American democracy. I am not questioning your beliefs, which I am certain are genuine - it is not easy to go against the group in this way, and I respect that. All the same, your worldview is dangerous to civil society. The police exist for two purposes, which are sometimes set against one another. First, to keep the public order. This is often disliked but very important. And second, the enforce the law. (Less disliked on average, but not especially popular.) When police iniate violence, a democratic society demands that they do so for good reason, and be held accountable if they fail to do so. Police are granted extraordinary authority - and that authority itself is very much against the democratic spirit. When police abuse that power, and far too often they do, they are adopting a pretense of being superior to other citizens. That attitude itself can be regarded as treasonous - and I do not in the least mean that as humorous exaggeration or hyperbole. Men have been executed by their nation or state in the past for acting in that way, whether under some “official” status or not. In the modern American polity, we ought to be able to trust the police at least not to exercise their _ability_ to do violence as though it were a _license_ to do violence. We, the people, only tolerate giving the police the power to enforce on the condition that they maintain order. Killing people in the street, even for the noblest of reasons, is terrible offense against the public good, and must be demonstrable better than the alternative. When the police escalate a situation, they are engaging in a very dangerous game, and it should be automatic and reflexive to verify that they did the right thing. While I am somewhat sympathetic to people making mistakes, even dire one, when under deep stress of the mooment, it also does not change the fact that those mistakes can cost people their lives. And no matter what sympathy I might feel for an officer who makes that mistake, it also doesn’t change the fact that the other guy in the mix might also have made an innocent or well meaning mistake under pressure, and been punished unfairly. Authority exists for two reasons: First, to be obeyed. Second, to be questioned. All authority everywhere is conditioned upon its being just. I’m a democracy, no one is above question or judgement. It’s unfortunate, then, that too many people rush to declare that their personal favorites are indeed, above question or judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9241 "2016-09-30T02:55:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There’s no excuse for riots and excusing them is just as bad as good cops lying for bad cops. Is that an absolute statement? You think that there is never an excuse for rioting? Ever? Under any circumstances? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=461) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=463)