# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 463
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9242 "2016-09-30T03:28:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > They aren’t shot for non-compliance; they’re shot for threatening behavior. Then why did you say that this would all be avoided if folks would learn compliance? That would imply that all it took was them being non-compliant. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Instead of making excuses for all this crap, the black community would be much better served by placing an emphasis on compliance rather than making the police the bad guys when law-breakers and resisters get shot. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9243 "2016-09-30T03:56:28Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It’s probably unfair for more people to dogpile atop **Starving Artist**. > > But, **SA** , let me explain _why_ you are wrong. It’s very important, and goes directly to the heart of American democracy. I am not questioning your beliefs, which I am certain are genuine - it is not easy to go against the group in this way, and I respect that. All the same, your worldview is dangerous to civil society. > > The police exist for two purposes, which are sometimes set against one another. First, to keep the public order. This is often disliked but very important. And second, the enforce the law. (Less disliked on average, but not especially popular.) > > When police iniate violence, a democratic society demands that they do so for good reason, and be held accountable if they fail to do so. Police are granted extraordinary authority - and that authority itself is very much against the democratic spirit. When police abuse that power, and far too often they do, they are adopting a pretense of being superior to other citizens. That attitude itself can be regarded as treasonous - and I do not in the least mean that as humorous exaggeration or hyperbole. Men have been executed by their nation or state in the past for acting in that way, whether under some “official” status or not. > > In the modern American polity, we ought to be able to trust the police at least not to exercise their _ability_ to do violence as though it were a _license_ to do violence. We, the people, only tolerate giving the police the power to enforce on the condition that they maintain order. Killing people in the street, even for the noblest of reasons, is terrible offense against the public good, and must be demonstrable better than the alternative. When the police escalate a situation, they are engaging in a very dangerous game, and it should be automatic and reflexive to verify that they did the right thing. While I am somewhat sympathetic to people making mistakes, even dire one, when under deep stress of the mooment, it also does not change the fact that those mistakes can cost people their lives. And no matter what sympathy I might feel for an officer who makes that mistake, it also doesn’t change the fact that the other guy in the mix might also have made an innocent or well meaning mistake under pressure, and been punished unfairly. > > Authority exists for two reasons: First, to be obeyed. Second, to be questioned. All authority everywhere is conditioned upon its being just. I’m a democracy, no one is above question or judgement. It’s unfortunate, then, that too many people rush to declare that their personal favorites are indeed, above question or judgement. Thanks, **Smiling Bandit**. I appreciate both the tone and the reason for your post, and your points are well taken. Certainly in an ideal world no innocent person should be shot (or otherwise killed) by the police. But we don’t live in a perfect world, and all too often confrontations occur where police officers are forced to make split-second decisions based only on what know at the time, and knowing the wrong decision can cost them their lives. Experience has taught them that things can go south very quickly indeed and that if they don’t maintain control the possibility that things will go south increases dramatically. So when confronted with an uncooperative citizen the officer becomes hyper-alert to danger, and is therefore inclined to view any sort of threatening movement as very dangerous indeed. This is why compliance needs to be stressed. Police work is very dangerous, and apart from traffic stops the police spend most of their with the dregs of society. Drug use, violence and criminality is commonplace among such people, as is an anti ‘po-leece’ attitude toward cops in general, even among family members and friends who aren’t engaged in criminality themselves. It’s a sort of ‘us vs. them’ attitude that is quite common among the low-income/outlaw set no matter what race they are. The result of this is that they spend their days routinely being lied to and conned by people trying to get away with stuff, denying they have weapons when they really do, denying knowledge of where weapons and contraband have come from, claiming they just bought the car they’re driving from some guy on the street, etc., etc., etc. They arrive to domestic disturbance calls and attempt to take the wife or husband beater into custody only to be cussed out and set upon by the victim. And they get attitude from almost everybody they encounter in low-income and/or high-crime areas. So cops are well-versed in the fact they can’t take things at face value. They can’t just assume there’s no gun in that guy’s pockets, so they have to command him not to have his hands in his pockets. They can’t take someone’s word for it that there’s no gun in the car, so they have to take command, frisk and handcuff the guy and have him sit on the curb so they can search the car. And just because someone’s unarmed, it doesn’t mean they can’t charge at him at any time and try to beat him down and/or take his gun and shoot him with it. ([Here’s an excellent video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4G2M0MS3b8) that shows just how quickly and unexpectedly deadly situations can develop when an officer arrives and confronts someone, even if they’re not overtly breaking the law at the time.) So cops have to keep these kinds of things in mind, all day and every day, and especially with confrontations that begin with someone copping an attitude and/or refusing to comply. There’ve been occasions in my life when I’ve seen cops act like out-and-out assholes. I’ve seen 'em be bullies and on one occasion I saw them blow off a crime victim and not even look for the perpetrator because a relative of the victim had a drug problem and was tangentially involved. And some of them seem to have a real affinity for shooting people’s dogs. And certainly there have been some shootings that are hard to justify. But to take the position that before firing their weapons cops must first determine whether someone is having a medical or drug episode, or is autistic or having mental issues, or doesn’t really have a weapon after all despite the fact the subject won’t cooperate with a search, is not only unrealistic but ridiculous (not saying this is your stance, **SB** ). Basically what most of the posters in this thread seem to demand is that a cop never make a call that turns out to be wrong after the fact, despite the fact he or she had no way whatsoever to determine that beforehand. They seem essentially to expect cops to be mind-readers and to gamble with their lives that they’re right. Threatening behavior comes in many forms and from many directions and and from many different types of people, and cops are simply not going to stop reacting to it. It’s not going to happen. Cops have no choice but to issue the commands necessary to take situations under control. There’s absolutely no alternative. And as we’ve seen, sometimes mistakes happen. So again, compliance is the key. In almost every shooting that’s been drawing media attention lately, the person killed was refusing to comply with the officer’s legal commands. If only they had complied, they’d still be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9244 "2016-09-30T04:03:42Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Then why did you say that this would all be avoided if folks would learn compliance? That would imply that all it took was them being non-compliant. No, non-compliance itself need not necessarily lead to someone being shot, or even to violence itself. It’s when non-compliance escalates to deadly threat that people get shot. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9245 "2016-09-30T04:19:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Basically what most of the posters in this thread seem to demand is that a cop never make a call that turns out to be wrong after the fact, despite the fact he or she had no way whatsoever to determine that beforehand. They seem essentially to expect cops to be mind-readers and to gamble with their lives that they’re right. You are extraordinarily bad at understanding what other people are saying. ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9246 "2016-09-30T12:45:20Z")
I don’t believe I’ve heard of [this excuse](http://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/09/30/attorney-betty-shelby-had-temporary-loss-of-hearing-during-te/21483830/) before. > [@](#): > > **Attorney: Betty Shelby had ‘temporary loss of hearing’ during Terence Cruthcher shooting** Impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9247 "2016-09-30T12:56:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They didn’t call for an ambulance? Calling an ambulance is a bare minimum. But this was interesting: > [@](#): > > The FBI agent who rendered first aid to Tamir Rice minutes after a Cleveland police officer shot the 12-year-old boy later told investigators that the officers on scene “wanted to do something, but they didn’t know what to do.” > > The agent, who is trained as a paramedic, said he took charge of assisting the boy, whose intestines were exposed through a wound to the torso, while one officer sat in a car holding his ankle. Looks like yet another training issue. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9248 "2016-09-30T13:03:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Threatening behavior comes in many forms and from many directions and and from many different types of people, and cops are simply not going to stop reacting to it. It’s not going to happen. Cops have no choice but to issue the commands necessary to take situations under control. There’s absolutely no alternative. And as we’ve seen, sometimes mistakes happen. So again, compliance is the key. In almost every shooting that’s been drawing media attention lately, the person killed was refusing to comply with the officer’s legal commands. **If only they had complied, they’d still be alive today.** And there you go again, repeating this while denying it when called out on it. Comply or Die. Lethal Force is not an acceptable response to non-compliance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9249 "2016-09-30T13:09:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So again, compliance is the key. In almost every shooting that’s been drawing media attention lately, the person killed was refusing to comply with the officer’s legal commands. If only they had complied, they’d still be alive today. If that slave hadn’t tried to run away, he wouldn’t have been whipped so bad that he died from infection. If only he had complied with his master’s wishes, he’d still be alive today. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9250 "2016-09-30T13:20:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This is why compliance needs to be stressed. Police work is very dangerous, and apart from traffic stops the police spend most of their with the dregs of society. This is the part that I feel needs to be addressed the most here. First of all, being a cop, not all that dangerous. There are many jobs that pay much less, have many fewer perks, and are far more dangerous. Second, “dregs of society”? If that is how the police are viewing the citizens that they are supposed to be policing, that could be a problem. It leads to dehumanizing the citizens. It leads to treating them as the enemy, rather than the people that are supposed to be served by the police. It leads to making assumptions in encounters that are not only unjustified, but end up being lethal or degrading to the community they are supposed to be protecting. Finally, if the job is too dangerous, quit. We don’t let garbage collectors refuse to do certain streets because they are busy. We don’t let firemen refuse to enter a building because it’s on fire. If being a cop makes people nervous enough that they need to proactively kill or degrade the community that they are in in order to feel safe, then being a cop is not for them. Pick up a job at a petting zoo, or as a pillow tester or something. Something that doesn’t involve using your judgement over whether or not another human being is worth keeping alive. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9251 "2016-09-30T13:50:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m a middle aged white guy with no criminal history. Even my last speeding ticket was almost a decade ago. Speeding **IS** a crime. You are criminal scum. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9252 "2016-09-30T14:02:59Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Speeding **IS** a crime. You are criminal scum. Like I said, nearly a decade ago. I was still in my 20’s even. But yeah, sign me up for the dregs of society newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9253 "2016-09-30T14:36:48Z")
You are already here. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9254 "2016-09-30T15:22:12Z")
> [@slumtrimpet](#): > > I don’t believe I’ve heard of [this excuse](http://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/09/30/attorney-betty-shelby-had-temporary-loss-of-hearing-during-te/21483830/) before. > > Impressive. So if I ever get pulled over for driving erratically, maybe I can get a lawyer who will claim I suffered from temporary-loss-of-vision? Good to know. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Like I said, nearly a decade ago. I was still in my 20’s even. > > But yeah, sign me up for the dregs of society newsletter. You should be shot. I mean, unlike like some of these cases where non-criminals get shot, you freely admit to being one! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9255 "2016-09-30T16:42:17Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Speeding **IS** a crime. You are criminal scum. Little early for the sauce, ain’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9256 "2016-09-30T16:58:59Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Little early for the sauce, ain’t it? Dude, you better do what he says-That’s Robocop! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9257 "2016-09-30T17:13:49Z")
> [@quimper](#): > > The hell you say. So when do you think that riots are appropriate in a nation like ours? > [@](#): > > Now you’re just making shit up No, a riot delegitimizes the protest as much as a bad cop delegitimizes the police. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9258 "2016-09-30T17:14:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve seen other studies that indicated that they did, but police departments still aren’t releasing all their data on shootings (if they even maintain it). Until we mandate that all police departments record data on shootings, including race, and save and release videos to the public, then we may not be able to have a conclusive study. Since Michael Brown, newspapers have been compiling all police shootings. But I agree, better recordkeeping should be a primary goal of any reform. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9259 "2016-09-30T17:17:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > How many people need to be unjustly killed before you start to care? For me it’s a pretty low number. Sure, even one is too many… But the sentiment is that this sort of thing is happening all the time and every day. I am not convinced about much in this debate but I AM convinced that any police shooting that is even arguably bad is being covered by the media and there just aren’t that many where I say “WTF was that?!?!?!” Certainly not enough for a general indictment of the police. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9260 "2016-09-30T17:17:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Another guy who dies by the hand of a cop because he doesn’t comply](http://www.kwch.com/content/news/Ellis-Co-attorney-to-update-Hays-officer-involved-shooting-on-Thursday-395003511.html). Where in the story does it indicate that he was shot because he did not comply? I saw nothing to indicate that the police ordered him to drive with expired tags, refuse to pull over, refuse to get out of the car, flee the arrest, or resist arrest when they caught up to him. > [@Typo Negative](#): > > …the video that will not be released… …at the family’s request… FTFY. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9261 "2016-09-30T17:18:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So when do you think that riots are appropriate in a nation like ours? > > No, a riot delegitimizes the protest as much as a bad cop delegitimizes the police. Tone policing the protesters, apparently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=462) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=464)