# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 466
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9302 "2016-10-02T18:34:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Okay, so let’s approach this from what appears to be your angle. What do you expect to be gained by encouraging or defending non-compliance? That “your” word. Are you addressing your challenge only to those people who explicitly encourage or defend non-compliance? So, the rest of us may safely ignore? I, for one, would never fucking _ever_ “encourage” non-compliance, for the clear and obvious reason that one might get killed rather than merely abused or humiliated. Did someone say something like “You must stand up for your rights and defy The Man!” Didn’t notice such a thing, would have said something if I had. Kind of a bad plan. Yeah. So, perzackly, who are these people? What did they actually say, and when, and where? I’d say “put up or shut up” if I had any faith you’d do either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9303 "2016-10-02T18:37:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And you expect to accomplish this by encouraging or defending non-compliance? No one has “encourage or defended” non-compliance. Many have tried to explain that non-compliance isn’t the issue, since non-compliance alone (often due to confusion or some explanation other than a desire to resist) should never be a death sentence but sometimes appears to be. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9304 "2016-10-02T19:04:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And you expect to accomplish this by encouraging or defending non-compliance? Refraining from executing people is not “encouraging or defending non-compliance”. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9305 "2016-10-02T22:29:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its rare for a cop to be involved in an unjustified shooting. How many of the thousand cop shootings that resulted in death last year do you think was like Walter Scott where a cop drops a gun on the dead victim’s body? How many do you think were like Terence Crutcher (I think Officer Shelby would probably have gotten away with it if not for the helicopter video; someone would have rolled down that window when noone was looking and that would have been the end of that)? But in order to prevent that result, we should force all cops to have body cameras (with audio that turns on when the gun is unholstered) and we should collect police statements before the video is made available to the police. Police that lie should lose their job and go to jail. I believe the point is that we have no idea if it is rare or not. Although I’ll add that the fact that other cops seem to support false reporting quite easily and dependably indicates that it is at least common enough for an unofficial procedure to have developed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9306 "2016-10-02T23:17:57Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Refraining from executing people is not “encouraging or defending non-compliance”. Anarchist! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9307 "2016-10-03T00:14:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And you expect to accomplish this by encouraging or defending non-compliance? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9308 "2016-10-03T00:19:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And you expect to accomplish this by encouraging or defending non-compliance? You seem fixated on compliance and the supposition that cops are free to murder people who don’t comply. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9309 "2016-10-03T00:56:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And you expect to accomplish this by encouraging or defending non-compliance? What about all the blood of tyrants and tree of liberty crap your ilk is always spouting? You do realize the police are the government right? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9310 "2016-10-03T14:33:42Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > What about all the blood of tyrants and tree of liberty crap your ilk is always spouting? You do realize the police are the government right? Only when they’re taking their guns away. If they’re just killing black folks… meh. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9311 "2016-10-03T15:10:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes!!! Not complying with an officer and heading back to your car where you could have a weapon is enough justification to be shot by a taser. They should have tasered him sooner. Complying for what? Again, his car was stalled. The encounter goes “What’s wrong with your vehicle?” “It’s stalled.” “Is there a truck or someone on the way? Can we get it out of the street, so there’s no impediment to traffic or chance of an accident? Anything I can help with, or someone I can call? I’ll stay here just to make sure you or your vehicle don’t get hit.” Crutcher committed no crime. No need or right for forced compliance. Hell, for all the information we actually have, he was heading back to his car to get his registration for the officer. Or his wallet for his driver’s license. Or any of a dozen other perfectly reasonable reasons. Instead, he’s dead because his car broke down and police got scared. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9312 "2016-10-03T15:49:15Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Complying for what? Complying by not going back to his vehicle where he might have a weapon, and by showing his hands. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9313 "2016-10-03T17:16:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Complying by not going back to his vehicle where he **might** have a weapon, and by showing his hands. “Might” is a pretty weak reason to shoot any person. A cop “might” shoot a black person for no real, articulable reason, is a black person allowed to preemptively defend themself? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9314 "2016-10-03T17:26:16Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Seeing as how the cops write the reports that become the official version UNLESS CONTRADICTED BY 3RD PARTY VIDEO. Does it have to be by third party video or can it be police video (like in the case of Terence Crutcher?). > [@](#): > > Just between you and me, what part of this are you not getting? The link that has been posted several times in this thread, where the Charleston cop shoots the guy running away then says the guy grabbed his taser? If it were not for the video captured on a cell phone, that shooting would been ruled _justified_ and cop would still be on the beat. Maybe get a commendation. He would have been a hero-cop who won in a battle against a violent thug. It is ONLY because of the video that we now know that the cop was the violent thug. > > [Here it is for the 4th or 5th time.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1173602/GRAPHIC-Charleston-cop-fatally-shoots-man-runs-away.html) > > Again, were it not for the cell phone video, blah, blah, blah ad naseum. Sure, I agree. That was a bad cop. Are you saying that some appreciable percentage of cop shootings fall into that category? I don’t think a majority of the PROTESTED shootings fall into the bad shooting category. > [@](#): > > I gotta tell ya. ALL shootings where the dash cams and body cams are not turned on are _suspect_. Yes, they are at least as suspect as a shooting committed by a private citizen and the law is supposed to treat them with that level of suspicion. I realize that the prosecutors in some places don’t do this and I would support the civil rights division at least examining every police shooting but in the end, even the majority of the cases that people are marching about were justified. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9315 "2016-10-03T17:35:14Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band military-grade pepper spray > > Read the inventor’s reaction : [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/us/pepper-sprays-fallout-from-crowd-control-to-mocking-images.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/us/pepper-sprays-fallout-from-crowd-control-to-mocking-images.html) That’s just pepper spray. I can get it on Amazon. [Amazon.com: Customer reviews: Defense Technology 56895 MK-9 Stream, 1.3% Red Band/1.3% Blue Band Pepper Spray](https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Technology-First-Stream-Aerosol/product-reviews/B0058EOAUE) I can actually get more effective pepper spray on Amazon. Its called bear spray. [https://www.amazon.com/13-4oz-Super-Magnum-Spray-holster/dp/B001QGXNAG/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475516003&sr=8-1&keywords=UDAP+18CP+Super+Magnum+Bear+Spray](https://www.amazon.com/13-4oz-Super-Magnum-Spray-holster/dp/B001QGXNAG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475516003&sr=8-1&keywords=UDAP+18CP+Super+Magnum+Bear+Spray) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9316 "2016-10-03T17:35:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …even the majority of the cases that people are marching about were justified. Before we accept your authoritative pronouncement…may I ask, with all due awe, just what source you rely upon? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9317 "2016-10-03T17:42:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, that’s pretty much the definition of prejudice. It may be natural to think that way, but it is the opposite of helpful. The rioting is even less helpful. And excusing that rioting is ridiculous. The rioters are undermining the legitimacy of the BLM movement whether you like it or not, if Tea partiers started putting effigies of Obama in a noose and burning that effigy over a burring cross (or carry posters of him with a bone through his nose, or in an arab outfit, or questioned his birth certificate) you might start thinking of the tea partiers as racists even though plenty of them just don’t want to pay taxes and hate Democrats based on political affiliation with no antipathy towards minorities. (Except no one ever made excuses for those guys for being racist) If Chelsea United fans riot after pretty much every game, then it is not only natural to think of Chelsea United fans as hooligans. The Chelsea united fans would have a deserved reputation as hooligans. Just like the Tea party had a deserved reputation for being racist. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9318 "2016-10-03T17:47:50Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I believe the point is that we have no idea if it is rare or not. Although I’ll add that the fact that other cops seem to support false reporting quite easily and dependably indicates that it is at least common enough for an unofficial procedure to have developed. Well, considering how many of the protested shootings seem to be justified when all the evidence is examined (with people continuing to refuse to admit they were justified by saying "well the cop should have looked for ways to “de-escalate” the situation so they wouldn’t HAVE to shoot the guy that was an apparent threat to his life), it seems like these bad police shootings seem to be in the minority, even among the police shootings that are being protested. I agree we should have universal body cams and dashboard cams but we do have a lot of them and they should be picking up a lot more of this abuse if it is as rampant as everyone seems to think. If it is rampant enough to justify rioting and looting of cities. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9319 "2016-10-03T17:51:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > What about all the blood of tyrants and tree of liberty crap your ilk is always spouting? You do realize the police are the government right? Nope, only the EPA, the IRS and Planned Parenthood are the "government for these purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9320 "2016-10-03T17:54:55Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Complying for what? Again, his car was stalled. The encounter goes > “What’s wrong with your vehicle?” > “It’s stalled.” > “Is there a truck or someone on the way? Can we get it out of the street, so there’s no impediment to traffic or chance of an accident? Anything I can help with, or someone I can call? I’ll stay here just to make sure you or your vehicle don’t get hit.” > Crutcher committed no crime. No need or right for forced compliance. Hell, for all the information we actually have, he was heading back to his car to get his registration for the officer. Or his wallet for his driver’s license. Or any of a dozen other perfectly reasonable reasons. Instead, he’s dead because his car broke down and police got scared. And he should have been tasered for refusing to comply with an officer’s lawfully given orders. If he had gotten on the ground instead of moving towards his car, he would still be alive today. With that said, he should not have been killed for failing to follow orders. Its the reason we even have tasers, so that the police have a non-lethal option. He should have been tasered waaay earlier in the encounter. It would have saved him from being murdered by a nervous Barney Fife cop. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9321 "2016-10-03T17:55:55Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > “Might” is a pretty weak reason to shoot any person. A cop “might” shoot a black person for no real, articulable reason, is a black person allowed to preemptively defend themself? YES!!! You are allowed to taser people for “might”!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=465) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=467)