# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 467
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9322 "2016-10-03T17:58:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Before we accept your authoritative pronouncement…may I ask, with all due awe, just what source you rely upon? Math. Math is my source. Larger numbers are bigger than smaller numbers. OK, you name a BLM protest over a guy that was killed without justification and I will name one where the police were justified. I bet you run out before I do. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9323 "2016-10-03T18:08:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, considering how many of the protested shootings seem to be justified when all the evidence is examined (with people continuing to refuse to admit they were justified by saying "well the cop should have looked for ways to “de-escalate” the situation so they wouldn’t HAVE to shoot the guy that was an apparent threat to his life), it seems like these bad police shootings seem to be in the minority, even among the police shootings that are being protested. > > I agree we should have universal body cams and dashboard cams but we do have a lot of them and they should be picking up a lot more of this abuse if it is as rampant as everyone seems to think. If it is rampant enough to justify rioting and looting of cities. The case in Baltimore - where the young ,an called for medical help and was beaten and died as a result = the original police report stated that the girlfriend called for help. She didn’t. She was heard in the background of his call, saying "tell them to hurry"or something. Was that a justified use of force? Would it have been, if the original report stood? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9324 "2016-10-03T18:20:44Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > “Might” is a pretty weak reason to shoot any person. A cop “might” shoot a black person for no real, articulable reason, is a black person allowed to preemptively defend themself? We aren’t talking about a case of a cop shooting a black person for no “real” articulable reason. Look, there is a huge disconnect between BLM and way too many people on the SDMB and the Internet, and normal people. When the cops stop you, and tell you to do something reasonable like “show me your hands” or “stand over here out of traffic while we try to figure out what your deal is” or “keep your hands out of your pockets” - _you don’t get to say No._ This is an order that you have to obey, NOT the opening of a negotiation. And that is NOT the same thing as saying “that entitles the cops to shoot you on a whim” or Jim Crow or a police state or any of the rest of that nonsense. That’s how an ordered society has to operate. The police have to be able to get/maintain control over the situation, because if every time they find some drug-addled ex-con raving in the middle of the street, they have to say Pretty Please with cream and sugar, sooner or later he _is_ going to grab a gun. It doesn’t make any difference if you are black and the cops busted your brother-in-law just because he was black and driving with expired tags or you got busted for no reason at all besides resisting arrest on a domestic violence call or that you read about black people being lynched in 1901 or whatever. You have to do what the police say. Not “no matter what” - when they tell you to do something reasonable like “keep your hands in sight”. It doesn’t matter that your father never stuck around long enough to teach you how an adult behaves when confronted with a situation where “I don’t WANNA” doesn’t cut any ice. There is such a thing as “legitimate authority”. The police have it. Sure, once in a while, they abuse it. Tough noogies - the need for it in 99% of police interactions with PCP-addled dipshits remains very real. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9325 "2016-10-03T18:23:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We aren’t talking about a case of a cop shooting a black person for no “real” articulable reason. > > Look, there is a huge disconnect between BLM and way too many people on the SDMB and the Internet, and normal people. When the cops stop you, and tell you to do something reasonable like “show me your hands” or “stand over here out of traffic while we try to figure out what your deal is” or “keep your hands out of your pockets” - _you don’t get to say No._ This is an order that you have to obey, NOT the opening of a negotiation. And that is NOT the same thing as saying “that entitles the cops to shoot you on a whim” or Jim Crow or a police state or any of the rest of that nonsense. That’s how an ordered society has to operate. The police have to be able to get/maintain control over the situation, because if every time they find some drug-addled ex-con raving in the middle of the street, they have to say Pretty Please with cream and sugar, sooner or later he _is_ going to grab a gun. > > It doesn’t make any difference if you are black and the cops busted your brother-in-law just because he was black and driving with expired tags or you got busted for no reason at all besides resisting arrest on a domestic violence call or that you read about black people being lynched in 1901 or whatever. You have to do what the police say. Not “no matter what” - when they tell you to do something reasonable like “keep your hands in sight”. It doesn’t matter that your father never stuck around long enough to teach you how an adult behaves when confronted with a situation where “I don’t WANNA” doesn’t cut any ice. **There is such a thing as “legitimate authority”. The police have it. Sure, once in a while, they abuse it. Tough noogies -** the need for it in 99% of police interactions with PCP-addled dipshits remains very real. > > Regards, > Shodan This is a remarkably cavalier attitude about police abuse of authority. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9326 "2016-10-03T18:27:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Tough noogies - the need for it in 99% of police interactions with PCP-addled dipshits remains very real. > > Regards, > Shodan And you just showed your racism. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9327 "2016-10-03T18:39:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We aren’t talking about a case of a cop shooting a black person for no “real” articulable reason. > > Look, there is a huge disconnect between BLM and way too many people on the SDMB and the Internet, and normal people. When the cops stop you, and tell you to do something reasonable like “show me your hands” or “stand over here out of traffic while we try to figure out what your deal is” or “keep your hands out of your pockets” - _you don’t get to say No._ This is an order that you have to obey, NOT the opening of a negotiation. And that is NOT the same thing as saying “that entitles the cops to shoot you on a whim” or Jim Crow or a police state or any of the rest of that nonsense. That’s how an ordered society has to operate. The police have to be able to get/maintain control over the situation, because if every time they find some drug-addled ex-con raving in the middle of the street, they have to say Pretty Please with cream and sugar, sooner or later he _is_ going to grab a gun. > > It doesn’t make any difference if you are black and the cops busted your brother-in-law just because he was black and driving with expired tags or you got busted for no reason at all besides resisting arrest on a domestic violence call or that you read about black people being lynched in 1901 or whatever. You have to do what the police say. Not “no matter what” - when they tell you to do something reasonable like “keep your hands in sight”. It doesn’t matter that your father never stuck around long enough to teach you how an adult behaves when confronted with a situation where “I don’t WANNA” doesn’t cut any ice. There is such a thing as “legitimate authority”. The police have it. Sure, once in a while, they abuse it. Tough noogies - the need for it in 99% of police interactions with PCP-addled dipshits remains very real. > > Regards, > Shodan What about when a bunch of plainclothes cops start yelling unclear orders? What if the guy asks a question and the cops grab him? It’s often not nearly as clear as you make it out to be. And when people grow up with legitimate reasons to see police officers as _actual deadly enemies_, then you’re essentially demanding something that’s impossible. For the vast majority of American history, including living memory of millions of black Americans, many or most police departments were violent and brutal enemies of black people. Sheriff Bull Connor wasn’t unusual for his time, and his kind didn’t disappear when the 60s ended. If that’s changed (and I believe it has to some degree), the change has been gradual and not sudden. Some departments have progressed more than others. In many parts of America, you’re asking for something as difficult as asking black people to comply immediately with orders from members of the KKK. In some parts of America, you’re _literally_ asking for black people to comply immediately with orders from KKK members. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9328 "2016-10-03T18:43:01Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > This is a remarkably cavalier attitude about police abuse of authority. Life’s harsh realities exist, attitude notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9329 "2016-10-03T18:55:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In many parts of America, you’re asking for something as difficult as asking black people to comply immediately with orders from members of the KKK. No, I’m not, and the suggestion is completely idiotic. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9330 "2016-10-03T18:56:02Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Life’s harsh realities exist, attitude notwithstanding. \*That’s just the way it is Some things will never change That’s just the way it is Ah, but don’t you believe them \* ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9331 "2016-10-03T18:58:11Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > And you just showed your racism. Thanks. PCP-Addled Dipshit is a race now? I’ll believe that when they put it on the census form, after “Aleutian Islander”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9332 "2016-10-03T19:20:14Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > And you just showed your racism. Thanks. Racism? Is PCP-addled dipshit code for black? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9333 "2016-10-03T19:26:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree we should have universal body cams and dashboard cams but we do have a lot of them and they should be picking up a lot more of this abuse if it is as rampant as everyone seems to think. If it is rampant enough to justify rioting and looting of cities. Under what circumstances are these videos even examined? After a death, I suppose, but what about the many(?) cases where police are abusive but no one dies? Are all these videos available to the public? ETA to call attention to this post: > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I really can’t imagine what it would be like to be black and have an interaction with the police, I would probably be terrified. Of course, being scared of the cop raises suspicion, raises the perceived “threat”, making it all the more likely that things go south. This is when people get arrested for doing nothing. This is when people get beaten for sitting on their own porch. This is when people get shot because they somehow didn’t manage to appease the officer enough that the cop felt safe enough to leave them alive. > > This thread isn’t just about the shootings. You don’t have to kill a man in order to degrade, injure, and humiliate him for no good reason, and I have seen that happen quite enough as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9334 "2016-10-03T19:27:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I’m not, and the suggestion is completely idiotic. > > Regards, > Shodan Right. Let’s pretend that there aren’t any white supremacist police officers in America. And let’s pretend that there aren’t any living black people who grew up being brutalized by white supremacist police officers, or whose parents were. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9335 "2016-10-03T19:30:29Z")
I see the Great He Was On PCP Line of Argument continues… Look, police training and protocols should contemplate, when faced with a situation of someone all f\*\*\*ed up in the street, or someone who’s not being cooperative in general, that the effort be made and the risk taken to have a less-lethal takedown rather than corner yourself into a deadly force decision point while wishing for submission that never comes? If you are repeatedly in situations where you are basically going “Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Oh shit, he’s reaching, FIRE!!” I say maybe, perhaps, you should consider that if you get past that fifth “stop” while the suspect’s still not in a position to draw a weapon but is obviously not going to comply, it’s time for taser, pepper spray, baton, something other than live ammo. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9336 "2016-10-03T19:58:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Under what circumstances are these videos even examined? After a death, I suppose, but what about the many(?) cases where police are abusive but no one dies? Are all these videos available to the public? No. And I don’t deny for a moment that there are horrible police abuses. The Walter Scott case CLEARLY demonstrates that cops do in fact drop guns on dead victims to get away with murder. The case if the guy who was selling single cigarettes getting killed with a choke hold clearly demonstrates that some cops think they’re fucking judge dredd. And the time that cop tackled the 12 year old in a bikini and pulled a gun on other kids, shows a very “respek mah authoriteh” attitude among some cops. The lack of immediate medical attention that many of these shooting victims get seems to indicate that some cops have a callous indifference towards the life of anyone they shoot. These things are an embarrassment to the entire country. But, these riots (and attendant looting) are inexcusable and BLM frequently protests shootings that are justified. > [@](#): > > ETA to call attention to this post: I agree. The recent Harvard study shows that there is a racial disparity in how police officers treat blacks versus whites (like we really needed a study to tell us that) I mean, can you IMAGINE a cop throwing around a young teenage white girl like that for mouthing off? But surprisingly the study indicates that there is not a significant disparity in when police officers shoot or kill blacks versus whites (in fact the data seems to point slightly in the other direction). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9337 "2016-10-03T20:00:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I see the Great He Was On PCP Line of Argument continues… > > Look, police training and protocols should contemplate, when faced with a situation of someone all f\*\*\*ed up in the street, or someone who’s not being cooperative in general, that the effort be made and the risk taken to have a less-lethal takedown rather than corner yourself into a deadly force decision point while wishing for submission that never comes? If you are repeatedly in situations where you are basically going “Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Oh shit, he’s reaching, FIRE!!” I say maybe, perhaps, you should consider that if you get past that fifth “stop” while the suspect’s still not in a position to draw a weapon but is obviously not going to comply, it’s time for taser, pepper spray, baton, something other than live ammo. Like I said, they should have tasered him much earlier but some people seem to think that even THIS is too much. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9338 "2016-10-03T20:03:37Z")
The riots are bad but those are instigated by a small minority of BLM protesters. Most protesters, and even most protests, are non-violent. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9339 "2016-10-03T20:14:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right. Let’s pretend that there aren’t any white supremacist police officers in America. And let’s pretend that there aren’t any living black people who grew up being brutalized by white supremacist police officers, or whose parents were. …so they all should get a pass now, because there were a few victims in the past? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9340 "2016-10-03T20:25:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Math. Math is my source. Larger numbers are bigger than smaller numbers… Math is not data. Math is what you do with data, if you have it. Either you don’t have it, or are very coy about revealing it. Course, last I’d heard, we don’t _have_ that data. We know how many eggs were produced in Wisconsin, we know the county by county breakdown. But we don’t have data on shooting, justified and otherwise, because nobody keeps that info, officially. > [@](#): > > …OK, you name a BLM protest over a guy that was killed without justification and I will name one where the police were justified. I bet you run out before I do. And your offer of trading equivalences? One for me, one for you? Seriously? If justified deaths outnumber unjustified, you win? I’m a generous man, I’m willing to accept that you hit the button before you gave it adequate thought. Be better if you said so, if that matters to you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9341 "2016-10-03T20:34:17Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …so they all should get a pass now, because there were a few victims in the past? This should be taken into account, and too often it is not. If police officers want to kill fewer black people they should consider a history that demonstrates the fear of police is entirely rational. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=466) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=468)