# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 468
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9342 "2016-10-03T20:55:54Z")
In which of the shootings that have been in the news the last couple of years has the person who was shot demonstrated an irrational fear of the police during the encounter? I’m thinking exactly none, but I could be wrong. What I’ve seen is belligerence, rebelliousness, physical resistance, physical attack, and refusal to comply, none of which is characteristic of irrational fear. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9343 "2016-10-03T20:56:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The riots are bad but those are instigated by a small minority of BLM protesters. Most protesters, and even most protests, are non-violent. So, a small minority of BLM protestors are violent, but that does not say anything about the rest of BLM. An enormously smaller minority of police are white supremacists. Therefore, the police are just like the KKK. Gotcha. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9344 "2016-10-03T21:05:24Z")
DC protests tonight on the case of Terrence Sterling. police officer turned on body cam after the shooting. > **[Terrence Sterling Was Shot in Back, Neck, Medical Examiner Says](https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/terrence-sterlings-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-says/98276/)** > > The motorcyclist killed this month by a D.C. police officer suffered gunshot wounds to the back and neck, the D.C. medical examiner said Wednesday afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9345 "2016-10-03T21:12:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, a small minority of BLM protestors are violent, but that does not say anything about the rest of BLM. An enormously smaller minority of police are white supremacists. Therefore, the police are just like the KKK. > > Gotcha. > > Regards, > Shodan And getting shot is exactly the same is getting paid leave, right? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9346 "2016-10-03T21:21:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In which of the shootings that have been in the news the last couple of years has the person who was shot demonstrated an irrational fear of the police during the encounter? I’m thinking exactly none, but I could be wrong. What I’ve seen is belligerence, rebelliousness, physical resistance, physical attack, and refusal to comply, none of which is characteristic of irrational fear. Walter Scott fled and had the weapon planted on his body Charles Kinsey lay down in the road and yelled that no one was armed, with his hands above him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9347 "2016-10-03T21:41:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …An enormously smaller minority of police are white supremacists… Prove it. And do you feel somehow better about an unjustifiable death if there was not actual racism? Would it be better if they were equally inclined to kill a white person? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9348 "2016-10-03T22:19:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, a small minority of BLM protestors are violent, but that does not say anything about the rest of BLM. An enormously smaller minority of police are white supremacists. Therefore, the police are just like the KKK. > > Gotcha. > > Regards, > Shodan Not sure who you’re arguing with, but it sure ain’t me. If you’d like to respond to the things I’ve said I’d be happy to continue. It may require thought and nuance, so if you’re not interested in that, no problem. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9349 "2016-10-03T22:46:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > An enormously smaller minority of police are white supremacists. You sure about that? [The FBI was worried about it a decade ago](http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9350 "2016-10-03T23:35:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > When the cops stop you, and tell you to do something reasonable like “show me your hands” or “stand over here out of traffic while we try to figure out what your deal is” or “keep your hands out of your pockets” - _you don’t get to say No._ This is an order that you have to obey, NOT the opening of a negotiation. IANAL, let alone an American one, but I was under the impression that “stop” actually has a fairly important legal meaning in terms of what police can then do as regards you, in the US. As for whether these are actually legal requirements to follow (for an actual stop or otherwise) I’d be curious to hear from someone better versed than me. > [@](#): > > Sure, once in a while, they abuse it. Tough noogies - the need for it in 99% of police interactions with PCP-addled dipshits remains very real. What are the percentages we’re talking about, here? Number of abuses vs. PCP-addled dipshits or equivalent, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9351 "2016-10-03T23:36:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In which of the shootings that have been in the news the last couple of years has the person who was shot demonstrated an irrational fear of the police during the encounter? I’m thinking exactly none, but I could be wrong. What I’ve seen is belligerence, rebelliousness, physical resistance, physical attack, and refusal to comply, none of which is characteristic of irrational fear. I’m here to help. [Charles Kinsey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Kinsey). Already mentioned in this very thread. From July of this year. Charles was not belligerent. He was not combative. He was not rebellious. He did not refuse to comply. He was lying on the ground with his hands in the air. (there is picture of this in the link) And, _ **AND** _, he was not the subject of the police action. He was a mental health worker, trying to get his _white_ patient to comply with police commands. Again, the cops were not there for him. He was complying. he was lying in the most non-threatening position you can imagine. _And a cop shot him anyway._ Fired not once, not twice, but THREE times. Kinsey was stuck once in the leg. > [@](#): > > **Both Kinsey and his patient were unarmed**. Following the shooting, Kinsey stated he was handcuffed and left bleeding on the ground for 20 minutes with police giving him no medical aid. He wasn’t suspected of ANYTHING (but being black). He was unarmed. He was shot. They handcuffed him and left him bleeding on the ground. He was not given aid for 20 minutes. THAT my friend, is a victim of a racist police department. Their attitude does indeed seem to be 'When in doubt, shoot the black man". Had it not been for cell phone video, this would have been just another angry black man who wouldn’t follow commands and was threatening the police officers. That would have been the _official_ record. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9352 "2016-10-03T23:56:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In which of the shootings that have been in the news the last couple of years has the person who was shot demonstrated an irrational fear of the police during the encounter? I’m thinking exactly none, but I could be wrong. What I’ve seen is belligerence, rebelliousness, physical resistance, physical attack, and refusal to comply, none of which is characteristic of irrational fear. Those all seem like things that could easily be caused by irrational fear to me, to be honest. Fight or flight, after all. Aggressive responses to ward off a a perceived threat. Refusal to comply isn’t odd if you’re expecting danger from a person attempting to control your movements. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9353 "2016-10-04T00:00:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In which of the shootings that have been in the news the last couple of years has the person who was shot demonstrated an irrational fear of the police during the encounter? I’m thinking exactly none, but I could be wrong. What I’ve seen is belligerence, rebelliousness, physical resistance, physical attack, and refusal to comply, none of which is characteristic of irrational fear. Philando Castile? He informed the officer that he had a permit for the weapon he was carrying. The officer asked to see his ID, then shot him as he was trying to get it out (it seems as though it was in his hip pocket – he was sitting in his car). The police were searching for suspects in an armed robbery from a few days earlier. One of them thought Castile looked like he might be one, based on surveillance video. Castile was apparently not aware of this. It would seem that he did not act in a fearful, belligerent or resistant manner, but he got shot anyway. I would assume that the officer failed to proceed appropriately: he probably should have asked Castile to step out of the car, so that the encounter could have been handled in the open, but I guess he was just too edgy just then. Police on edge, with guns, is maybe not ideal. I mean, _lack_ of fear, acting calm and normal, is enough to get you killed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9354 "2016-10-04T04:10:22Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I’m here to help. > > [Charles Kinsey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Kinsey). Already mentioned in this very thread. \*\*Starving Artist \*\*has been told about Charles Kinsey at least a dozen times in this thread. I hope this is the time that gets through to him, but I remember how much time he spent arguing that it wasn’t physically possible for a man to rape a boy (a position which he still holds, I believe). ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9355 "2016-10-04T05:07:53Z")
Oh, come on. He can’t still possibly be holding that position. You have to bend your knees just _so_, you know, and there’s no way for someone to keep that up for very long. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9356 "2016-10-04T10:17:29Z")
[Here’s](https://youtu.be/FYSsCaUFexw) an interesting video on the subject from the perspective of the police officer. Basically, the officer has to anticipate or she’s dead. And sometimes they make mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9357 "2016-10-04T10:30:15Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …so they all should get a pass now, because there were a few victims in the past? The fact that you and the police think of and treat a group of citizens as “they” is a big part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9358 "2016-10-04T11:54:23Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > The fact that you and the police think of and treat a group of citizens as “they” is a big part of the problem. Pronouns are RACIST!!! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9359 "2016-10-04T12:41:49Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > You sure about that? [The FBI was worried about it a decade ago](http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration.pdf). That document is too heavily redacted to establish much. > [@iiandyiii](#): > > Not sure who you’re arguing with, but it sure ain’t me. If you’d like to respond to the things I’ve said I’d be happy to continue. Yes, I am arguing with you. You claimed > [@](#): > > In many parts of America, you’re asking for something as difficult as asking black people to comply immediately with orders from members of the KKK. Which is, as mentioned, idiotic. You claimed that the fact that only a minority of BLM protestors are violent means that BLM as a whole is still credible. Only a minority of police are or have ever used inappropriate or unjustified violence against black people. Why then do black people (allegedly) consider the police as equivalent to the KKK? > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > IANAL, let alone an American one, but I was under the impression that “stop” actually has a fairly important legal meaning in terms of what police can then do as regards you, in the US. As for whether these are actually legal requirements to follow (for an actual stop or otherwise) I’d be curious to hear from someone better versed than me. IANAnAmericanL either, but I would be willing to bet a reasonable sum that it is legal for a police officer to tell someone being detained/arrested/investigated on the scene to keep his hands out of his pockets, not to approach his stalled vehicle in the middle of the street, and so forth. > [@](#): > > … very generally a lawful order is one that is given in furtherance of the officer’s official duties. Thus, while making a valid stop, the officer may give such orders as are necessary for the safety of the officer and others and to effect his investigation (so long as the order does not violate the individual’s constitutional or statutory rights, of course). While responding to an emergency, the officer may give such orders as are necessary to render aid in the emergency and keep public order. [Cite](http://boards.answers.findlaw.com/topic/232638-what-actions-can-police-order-citizens-to-perform-what-is-a-lawful-order/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9360 "2016-10-04T12:46:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Math is not data. Math is what you do with data, if you have it. Either you don’t have it, or are very coy about revealing it. > > Course, last I’d heard, we don’t _have_ that data. We know how many eggs were produced in Wisconsin, we know the county by county breakdown. But we don’t have data on shooting, justified and otherwise, because nobody keeps that info, officially. And the assumption has to be that its time to riot because we are so sure that the numbers (if they ever became known would justify rioting and looting? Come on, son, you know better than that. > [@](#): > > And your offer of trading equivalences? One for me, one for you? Seriously? If justified deaths outnumber unjustified, you win? I’m a generous man, I’m willing to accept that you hit the button before you gave it adequate thought. Be better if you said so, if that matters to you. My offer was to name a justified shooting that BLM protested for every unjustified shooting that you can name that BLM protested. My point being that even the stuff that BLM is identifying is not mostly justified. How many times have we heard “well, umm, the cops should have de-escalated instead of killing the guy that seemed to be threatening their lives” AFAIAC, body cams, dash cams and the implementation of best practices in their use would be enough for now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9361 "2016-10-04T12:51:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In which of the shootings that have been in the news the last couple of years has the person who was shot demonstrated an irrational fear of the police during the encounter? I’m thinking exactly none, but I could be wrong. What I’ve seen is belligerence, rebelliousness, physical resistance, physical attack, and refusal to comply, none of which is characteristic of irrational fear. To be fair sometimes it was a very rational fear of then police. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=467) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=469)