# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 474
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9462 "2016-10-05T12:36:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not sure if this was discussed yet: Sacramento police release [dashcam video](http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/10/sacramento-police-footage-joseph-mann/502709/) of cops discussing whether to hit a man with their car: then trying to hit the man twice, and then getting out of the car and shooting him (the shooting is obstructed in the video by another vehicle). > > But there’s probably a good explanation for why cops coming onto a situation would be discussing whether to run someone over and then trying to do so, and then shooting him. Either that, or these are just the only two bad cops and they happened to get recorded the one time they did something bad and it says absolutely nothing about policing practices and culture. Like most of these incidents it speaks directly to professional incompetence; these people have not been given the training and skill set to deal with the situation. It’s too difficult to judge their mental competency particularly vie-a-vie decision making but you also have to wonder… It’s so poor it’s comedic - like the guy in Florida shot on the ground with his arms up in the air “Why did you shoot me” “I dunno”. On this level of competence, they would not get a job patrolling a mall in most countries. Unarmed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9463 "2016-10-05T12:55:30Z")
[This article](http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article105721646.html) sheds more light on what was happening with the Mann shooting. There were two pairs of officers. The ones who arrived first were talking to Mann and trying to calm him down. There was no force used, even when Mann threw something at the cops. The second group, upon arrival, tried to run Mann over with their car and then got out and shot him. The first group should be commended. Why did the second pair immediately resort to deadly force, first with the car, and then by trying to shoot him? Why is that okay? Shouldn’t the approach of the first pair of cops be the norm for these sorts of situations? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9464 "2016-10-05T12:58:47Z")
The only thing I can think of is that **Shodan** and others think cops have zero (or near-zero) responsibility to _not_ kill someone who might be dangerous – that it’s _always_ okay, or so nearly always okay as to be no difference, to kill someone if there is the slightest chance that they might present danger to someone. That there’s no responsibility to try and de-escalate or avoid escalating a situation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9465 "2016-10-05T13:04:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I’ll take this seriously. You believe that it’s entirely okay and no problem at all if cops driving up to a situation with a report of an armed person, upon seeing a man on the street who won’t stop when asked, say “Fuck this guy”, “I’m going to hit him”, and then try to run him over with their car twice? > > Why is that okay? Even if they were certain this was the man reported to be armed, that means cops have free reign to run him over if he doesn’t stop walking when asked? > > No snark in this post. I think it’s terribly wrong for cops to try and run over someone even if they are reported to be armed, and even if they don’t stop when asked to stop. I think it’s utterly monstrous, and I can’t imagine how you can defend this. > > Please try and explain with no snark (which I’m often guilty of as well). Why is it okay for cops to try and run people over because they don’t stop when asked to stop? Are you objecting to the use of the police car, or lethal force in general? This was a homeless, mentally ill person, armed (according to the 911 call with either a gun or a knife - it turns out to have been a knife), waving the knife around and doing karate moves in the street. He runs from police. He had methamphetamine in his system when he was shot. You are phrasing your question wrongly. Police do not have free rein to run someone down if they don’t stop when asked to do so. And this is not a case where the police ran someone down because he didn’t stop when asked to do so. The question ought to be phrased “should the police attempt to stop a drug-addled maniac wielding a knife who is running away to avoid arrest by trying to hit him with their car, and, when that doesn’t work, confronting him and attempting an arrest, and when that doesn’t work, shooting him?” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9466 "2016-10-05T13:04:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The only thing I can think of is that **Shodan** and others think cops have zero (or near-zero) responsibility to _not_ kill someone who might be dangerous – that it’s _always_ okay, or so nearly always okay as to be no difference, to kill someone if there is the slightest chance that they might present danger to someone. That there’s no responsibility to try and de-escalate or avoid escalating a situation. To be fair, they don’t say it’s fine to kill just _anyone_. Just those who are judged as miscreants, or dregs of society, or “bad dudes”. They entirely trust the cop’s judgement on who deserves to live, and who deserves to die. Any objection to this is of course being a cop hater. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9467 "2016-10-05T13:12:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are you objecting to the use of the police car, or lethal force in general? > > This was a homeless, mentally ill person, armed (according to the 911 call with either a gun or a knife - it turns out to have been a knife), waving the knife around and doing karate moves in the street. He runs from police. He had methamphetamine in his system when he was shot. > > You are phrasing your question wrongly. Police do not have free rein to run someone down if they don’t stop when asked to do so. And this is not a case where the police ran someone down because he didn’t stop when asked to do so. > > The question ought to be phrased “should the police attempt to stop a drug-addled maniac wielding a knife who is running away to avoid arrest by trying to hit him with their car, and, when that doesn’t work, confronting him and attempting an arrest, and when that doesn’t work, shooting him?” > > Regards, > Shodan I’m objecting to the use of the car in this specific situation. I’m objecting to any cops who rule out trying to de-escalate when not in immediate danger and skip straight to deadly force. The first pair of cops were trying to talk him down and not using force. The second pair of cops arrive and _immediately_ tried to kill Mann (and eventually succeeded) when he doesn’t stop when asked. I object to “Fuck this guy” and “I’m going to hit him” which, to me, demonstrates a stunning lack of respect for life. Why is it wrong to require that cops do what the first pair did – _always_ try to de-escalate, and not to go to deadly force in the absence of imminent danger? Shouldn’t that always be the way cops approach a situation except in those very rare situations when the perp starts shooting out of the blue? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9468 "2016-10-05T13:18:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are you objecting to the use of the police car, or lethal force in general? > > The question ought to be phrased “should the police attempt to stop a drug-addled maniac wielding a knife who is running away to avoid arrest by trying to hit him with their car, and, when that doesn’t work, confronting him and attempting an arrest, and when that doesn’t work, shooting him?” > > Regards, > Shodan Hey, you know, whatever gets the homeless off the streets. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9469 "2016-10-05T13:22:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why is it wrong to require that cops do what the first pair did – _always_ try to de-escalate, and not to go to deadly force in the absence of imminent danger? Shouldn’t that always be the way cops approach a situation except in those very rare situations when the perp starts shooting out of the blue? Yes it is. Except when the cops know they can do whatever with impunity because people like the poster never, ever question the legitimacy of the action taken. It’s an aspect of white middle class entitlement; ‘the cops work for us so let them do their job …’ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9470 "2016-10-05T13:33:52Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Not Bob Munden, me. I submit your laser exercise was completely different from what I’m talking about. This isn’t a quick draw or “quick shoot” contest where you know the other guy is going to try to pull a gun and shoot you. If that were the case the officers could shoot at the first flinch of the suspect and might (probably?) get the first shot off. In our scenario the officers are searching a large dark building for a possible burglary suspect(s) with no idea whether there is one, more than one or no suspects present. The suspect is located in a second floor room so by the time the officers encounter him they are fairly stressed out with heavy breathing and elevated heart rates. By the way, they know that suspects can shoot and, if they do so accurately, it hurts quite a bit. Blood is regularly drawn on hits to exposed skin. (This is called “fear induced stress” and is a completely different animal than doing some push ups or running before shooting exercises. Not even close.) Once they do encounter him they have “rules of engagement” to follow (i.e, law and policy). They are giving commands and waiting for a reaction from the suspect while “watching their six” for other threats. I’m willing to bet that your laser game has none of that. If you ask anyone familiar with this type of training they will tell you that even the best simulators come nowhere near facing an actual opponent that can shoot back. I suggest you find a local department that demos this kind of training with public participation. I think it will open your eyes. > > P.S. - I didn’t even know who Bob Munden was until I looked him up. What he does has absolutely nothing in common with being involved in a confrontation in which losers might die. Well, there are guns involved. I’ll give you that. In that case its exactly the opposite of what I said before. I play Nerf hide and seek with my kid and the person hiding ALWAYS gets off the first shot because he knows where the seeker is going to be when they come through the door while the seeker has no idea where the hider is in the room. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9471 "2016-10-05T13:34:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Who closed the doors then? In the videos, the doors are clearly closed. When Mr. Crutcher was tased and killed, the car doors are closed. Who closed them? :dubious: I thought Officer Shelby did. Wasn’t that in the report somewhere? Why does that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9472 "2016-10-05T13:35:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m objecting to the use of the car in this specific situation. I’m objecting to any cops who rule out trying to de-escalate when not in immediate danger and skip straight to deadly force. The second pair of cops didn’t go straight to deadly force. The sequence of events isn’t very clear from the various articles, but AFAICT [ul] [li]Police receive a 911 call of a maniac wielding a knife and doing karate in the street.[/li][li]First pair of cops arrive. They stay inside their car and try to de-escalate.[/li][li]De-escalation doesn’t work. Knife-Wielding Maniac continues to refuse instructions to drop the knife, throws something at the cops.[/li][li]Second pair of cops arrive on the scene.[/li][li]KWM runs away.[/li][li]Cops follow KWM for several blocks, and discuss how to stop him, including hitting him with their car.[/li][li]KWM continues to run, refuses to drop the knife, etc.[/li][li]Cops try to hit him with their car.[/li][li]Twice.[/li][li]Missing both times, they follow KWM, catch up with him, and this time get out of their car.[/li][li]They shoot KWM.[/li][/ul]Are you saying that, after de-escalation failed to de-escalate, they should have tried it again, so KWM can run somewhere else and present a threat to the public in a different area? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9473 "2016-10-05T13:38:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > To be fair, they don’t say it’s fine to kill just _anyone_. > > Just those who are judged as miscreants, or dregs of society, or “bad dudes”. They entirely trust the cop’s judgement on who deserves to live, and who deserves to die. Any objection to this is of course being a cop hater. You left out “Black, in general”. Or, maybe the problem is Blacks are just judged that way by some of these officers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9474 "2016-10-05T13:39:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re willing to give the benefit of the doubt and make all these assumptions in favor of the cops. Others aren’t. You’re saying things like “in reality” and “clearly” when you really mean “assuming all my assumptions that are favorable to the cops are true, then in reality/clearly…” > > This is a choice you’re making that makes it easier for cops to get away with mistakes as long as they aren’t incredibly obvious. Even if everything SA is saying is true. Reaching for the door is no reason to use deadly force. Especially when a dude with a taser is standing right next to you. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9475 "2016-10-05T13:39:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The second pair of cops didn’t go straight to deadly force. > > The sequence of events isn’t very clear from the various articles, but AFAICT > [ul] > [li]Police receive a 911 call of a maniac wielding a knife and doing karate in the street.[/li][li]First pair of cops arrive. They stay inside their car and try to de-escalate.[/li][li]De-escalation doesn’t work. Knife-Wielding Maniac continues to refuse instructions to drop the knife, throws something at the cops.[/li][li]Second pair of cops arrive on the scene.[/li][li]KWM runs away.[/li][li]Cops follow KWM for several blocks, and discuss how to stop him, including hitting him with their car.[/li][li]KWM continues to run, refuses to drop the knife, etc.[/li][li]Cops try to hit him with their car.[/li][li]Twice.[/li][li]Missing both times, they follow KWM, catch up with him, and this time get out of their car.[/li][li]They shoot KWM.[/li][/ul]Are you saying that, after de-escalation failed to de-escalate, they should have tried it again, so KWM can run somewhere else and present a threat to the public in a different area? > > Regards, > Shodan Neither had a taser? No taser in the car? Neither squad car? Out of four officers, not a single one of them had any sort of training to deal with the mentally ill? Running him down or shooting him were truly the ONLY options they had? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9476 "2016-10-05T13:42:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So she already knew there was no weapon for him to grab? Did the other officers know the vehicle was checked out already and knew that it was clean? Sounds like murder to me. No, she didn’t look for weapons under the seat or anything, she was trying to locate missing the driver. So your thesis is that she KNEW that there wasn’t a weapon in the car but shot and killed this guy because … what? she wanted to feel the thrill of killing another human being? She woke up that morning and told herself, “I’m gonna kill me a nigger today”!!! What??? What exactly do you think she did that would transform this first degree manslaughter to murder? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9477 "2016-10-05T13:42:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The second pair of cops didn’t go straight to deadly force. > > The sequence of events isn’t very clear from the various articles, but AFAICT > [ul] > [li]Police receive a 911 call of a maniac wielding a knife and doing karate in the street.[/li][li]First pair of cops arrive. They stay inside their car and try to de-escalate.[/li][li]De-escalation doesn’t work. Knife-Wielding Maniac continues to refuse instructions to drop the knife, throws something at the cops.[/li][li]Second pair of cops arrive on the scene.[/li][li]KWM runs away.[/li][li]Cops follow KWM for several blocks, and discuss how to stop him, including hitting him with their car.[/li][li]KWM continues to run, refuses to drop the knife, etc.[/li][li]Cops try to hit him with their car.[/li][li]Twice.[/li][li]Missing both times, they follow KWM, catch up with him, and this time get out of their car.[/li][li]They shoot KWM.[/li][/ul]Are you saying that, after de-escalation failed to de-escalate, they should have tried it again, so KWM can run somewhere else and present a threat to the public in a different area? > > Regards, > Shodan How do you know the de-escalation wasn’t working? The first pair of cops didn’t make the choice to use deadly force. Why did the second pair know better? And even if your timeline is 100% correct, as long as no one was in imminent danger, then absolutely they should have kept trying to de-escalate. “No one’s in danger right now, but this guy still is being weird and could conceivably be a danger in the future, so we should kill him” isn’t okay for me. Why couldn’t they keep talking to him? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9478 "2016-10-05T13:42:48Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > You left out “Black, in general”. Or, maybe the problem is Blacks are just judged that way by some of these officers. I thought I covered that with “miscreants”, “dregs of society”, and “bad dudes”. It does make you a better person that you didn’t read that as “Black,” but I am sure that the relevant parties in this thread had no problem reading into it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9479 "2016-10-05T13:44:17Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > It has been nearly three weeks since the Crutcher shooting. No tox info. Curious. I think these things can take over a month ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9480 "2016-10-05T13:45:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Since we’re being clear: please list all the people you think are arguing against the tasering of Terence Crutcher, rather than the shooting of Terence Crutcher. Chisquirrel 9199 Ike Witt 9303 You with the face 9352 Chimera 9363 Snowboarder Bo 9372 Pretty much anyone giving me grief about whether Crutcher was disobeying orders. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9481 "2016-10-05T13:52:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t know why I bother continuing with this thread. Reason and rationality have long ago gone completely out the window, the cops-as-wanton-black-guy-killers crowd is impervious to fact, reason and the realities of how things happen in real life police situations, and the rest of us are talking into dead phones…or more accurately, tape recorders that keep playing the same wrong things over and over again. Hey, welcome back to the thread. In post [9417](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19675782&postcount=9417) I asked you to demonstrate your understanding of the concept of “facts”, remember? Planning to do that? And speaking of facts, **Vinyl Turnip** had a question for you in post [9420](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19675845&postcount=9420); don’t miss that one, OK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=473) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=475)