# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 476
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9502 "2016-10-05T17:07:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because he ran away. They had to chase him in their car before they could catch up with him. Are you really this stupid? > > Never mind - I have my answer. > > Regards, > Shodan I never thought you were possibly an unkind and inhumane person before this post – I always thought you were just a good guy who really thought about things differently than me. I’m sad to see that I might have been wrong. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9503 "2016-10-05T17:10:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > **Damuri Ajashi** you are defending the indefensible. We have the video. We know that the initial reports of what happened were lies. Now they have another story only after the video came out. The truth doesn’t change. Lies do. > > It doesn’t matter that the video came from the cops Well, doesn’t that at least undermine the notion that this is all a police cover-up? > [@](#): > > unless this cop gets punished. Right now, even cops we have on camera admitting to planting evidence and saying they had no reason to stop someone are not only not being prosecuted, but actually keeping their job due to laws passed to protect them or police unions. A bad Terry stop is not a reason to fire a cop, but can you please provide a link to the case where a cop admits to planting evidence on video and got to keep his job? Because that sounds pretty bad without knowing more. > [@](#): > > You have refused to update to the current reality, when we know that cops are not inherently to be trusted. You assume they are, and look for every reason why they could be right, no matter how implausible. You assume that the cop is innocent, which means you assume the victim is guilty. I don’t inherently trust cops any more than anyone else. I give them the EXACT SAME benefits of the doubt that I give to ordinary citizens with the understanding that they have police powers and no duty to retreat (or de-escalate as some people like to call it). So yes I give the cops the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. You seem to want cops to be presumed guilty until proven innocent. Ohio is the only state where self defense is an affirmative defense and Terence Crutcher was tasered in Oklahoma. I have had to get used to THAT new reality after the Treyvon Martin case made it clear that the law has changed since my law school days. I am making reasonable assumption based on the video. I guess YMMV but from what I can tell, it is VERY unlikely that the cops were not screaming orders at Terence Crutcher to get down or to stop where he is. And that unlikelihood is enough to create a reasonable doubt that the cop that tasered him was engaging in police brutality. > [@](#): > > You’re exactly like the people who presume the rape accusation is a lie, or that the person who cries racism is lying. This is what you do that is horrible. You lack the basic ethics to realize this. That is retarded and offensive. I presume innocence until guilt is proven but I don’t assume that rape accusations are lies. IIRC I got hammered on the Duke rape allegations AND the UVA rape allegation because I was too quick and willing to believe rape allegations. So if anything I have been wrong in being overly willing to believe rape allegation. As a minority I am familiar with the many faces of racism and while most of it real and sometimes people bring race into conversations where it does not belong. And other times, things that seem like racism prove to be the result of socioeconomic variables that can be traced back to historical racism but is not the result of current racism. > [@](#): > > I’m not even saying you have to presume innocence for the civilian until proven otherwise. You could just be neutral. But you aren’t. You know one side lied, but rather than allow that to damage their credibility, you look for reasons that it’s okay. Who lied in a manner that is damaging to credibility? > [@](#): > > That’s wrong, and that is what you do that is fucked up. You’re wrong. I am being neutral, you are on a witch hunt. You are practically requiring that police prove their innocence rather than putting forward the effort to prove their guilt. That is not how our justice system works. You sound more like an angry vigilante who thinks SOMEONE’S GOT TO PAY GODDAMIT!!! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9504 "2016-10-05T17:12:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What offense was Mr. Crutcher suspected of? Obstructing traffic, being intoxicated while operating a vehicle are two things that come to mind. Both of these are sufficient to warrant a terry stop. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9505 "2016-10-05T17:15:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > This seems to be discussing the shooting. But let’s clarify: **Ike Witt** , are you protesting the tasering or the shooting? I was responding directly to **Shodan** who said the victim was headed to his car where he might have a weapon. So I was protesting the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9506 "2016-10-05T17:17:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there no it was not saying that. Of course it was. Its also known as making excuses for rioting. You don’t like being called a rioter? Don’t riot. > [@](#): > > The rest of your post just bolsters the evidence that you are a jackass with a shitty attitude and a lack of self control. Truth hurts sometimes. You’ll get over it. > [@](#): > > u mad bro? No, why would I be mad. I am sad that a guy got killed because a trigger happy cop shot a suspect that wasn’t following directions. AFAICT, the only people who are mad are the BLM rioters (looters don’t seem quite as mad, just criminal) and some of the people on this board who insist that police must be presumed guilty until proven innocent. AFAICT, the only people who are mad are the people who think that any criticism of BLM means that I must be a racist or something. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9507 "2016-10-05T17:26:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Ah, tasers don’t work if you are holding a knife. Tasers require that you be fairly close to the subject before tasering, most likely well within range to be charged at and stabbed before you can fire it. Additionally, tasering doesn’t always have an effect, especially on drug-addled maniacs, of which this guy was one, meaning the officer would still be within range and stab-able after firing the taser. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9508 "2016-10-05T17:28:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Tasers require that you be fairly close to the subject before tasering, most likely well within range to be charged at and stabbed before you can fire it. Additionally, tasering doesn’t always have an effect, especially on drug-addled maniacs, of which this guy was one, meaning the officer would still be within range and stab-able after firing the taser. So for all the times in which knife-wielders were tased (or otherwise dealt with non-lethally), the cops were wrong and should have shot them? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9509 "2016-10-05T17:28:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not sure if this was discussed yet: Sacramento police release [dashcam video](http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/10/sacramento-police-footage-joseph-mann/502709/) of cops discussing whether to hit a man with their car: then trying to hit the man twice, and then getting out of the car and shooting him (the shooting is obstructed in the video by another vehicle). > > But there’s probably a good explanation for why cops coming onto a situation would be discussing whether to run someone over and then trying to do so, and then shooting him. Either that, or these are just the only two bad cops and they happened to get recorded the one time they did something bad and it says absolutely nothing about policing practices and culture. Unless the guy was shooting at the officers while they were driving up, I don’t know how you defend that. Even then I’d probably say the cops should stop and get behind cover and shoot him rather than try to run him over. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9510 "2016-10-05T17:29:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Fortunately your cite provides such an explanation - > Regards, > Shodan Yeah not good enough. Reports of an armed suspect are not enough to shoot them on sight or run them over as soon as you get to the scene. If a civilian can’t kill him in that situation, then neither can a cop. The only time I think a cop might get a little more leeway is when they are acting in the defense of others but even then you need a clear and imminent threat. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9511 "2016-10-05T17:29:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Unless the guy was shooting at the officers while they were driving up, I don’t know how you defend that. Even then I’d probably say the cops should stop and get behind cover and shoot him rather than try to run him over. **Shodan** says I’m stupid for questioning the attempted-running-over and successful shooting. I don’t get how someone can be so certain about these kinds of things. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9512 "2016-10-05T17:30:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, why would I be mad. I am sad that a guy got killed because a trigger happy cop shot a suspect that wasn’t following directions. What directions? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9513 "2016-10-05T17:31:40Z")
**Shodan** , what are your feelings about the Walter Scott and Sean Groubert shootings? I just wonder when you think it’s not “stupid” to be concerned or questioning about a police involved shooting (or other incident). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9514 "2016-10-05T17:40:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Of course it was. Its also known as making excuses for rioting. You don’t like being called a rioter? Don’t riot… See, here’s the problem: the police _cause_ riots. I have observed it. They find themselves very uncomfortable having to deal with large protest marches, especially unscheduled ones that have not been orchestrated with permits and paperwork. So they show up in riot gear, raising the overall tension of the situation. Then one officer gets mad at one of the marchers, gets into an altercation, and that sets off the flying tear gas canisters, flash-bangs and general mayhem. Most protesters typically do not want to get caught up in a riot, but having a riot makes it much easier for the police to act in the manner they are familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9515 "2016-10-05T17:45:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So for all the times in which knife-wielders were tased (or otherwise dealt with non-lethally), the cops were wrong and should have shot them? And how many times were those? Were the cops who did so acting according to their training? Were there specific circumstances involved that would make tasering less of a threat to others than gunfire? Etc., etc. And how were these knife-wielders dealt with non-lethally? My guess would be that they eventually dropped the knife rather than being shot. As far as the use of the car, seems to me the cops decided to use it as armor to bring down a fleeing suspect who had a knife rather than trying to tackle him and sustain stabbings themselves. Makes sense to me. And they likely knew from radio transmissions that the guy had already assaulted the first pair of officers, was running away, was dangerous, and was determined to continue to be…wait for it…non-compliant. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9516 "2016-10-05T17:50:19Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Additionally, tasering doesn’t always have an effect, especially on drug-addled maniacs, of which this guy was one So, you are able to differentiate someone being “drug-addled” vs being mentally ill? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9517 "2016-10-05T17:52:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To me this shows two pairs of cops – one pair is willing to put themselves at a slight risk to not kill a disturbed person. They don’t shoot him after the thermos throw because they (presumably) value human life enough not to kill people for acting weird and throwing thermoses even if they have a knife. > > The other pair is flippant with human life. They say things like “fuck this guy!” and “we’ll get him!”, treating policing like a video game – I don’t believe serious police officers dedicated to protecting the community would have such an attitude. If they are so flippant, why didn’t they just shoot him, or run him over, the instant they arrived on the scene four minutes after the first pair? Answer: because Mann ran away, thus demonstrating that de-escalation wasn’t working, and Mann was fleeing the scene, thus presenting a danger to the public. Did you happen to read the quote I cited, about the drivers of other stopped vehicles, and pedestrians, on the busy thoroughfare along which Mr. Mann was attempting to flee? > [@](#): > > Is there any doubt in your mind? Is it possible that the video is consistent with asshole cops who wanted to hurt someone and got their chance here? How about the Walter Scott or Sean Groubert shootings? > > I get sympathy for cops. But I don’t get certainty. I’m far from certain. I would phrase it as saying that I am at least as certain that using lethal force to stop a drug-addled maniac with a knife is appropriate as you are that saying “fuck this guy” and “I’m going to run him over” demonstrates a callous eagerness to kill or injure. Especially after de-escalation has been shown not to work. > [@](#): > > Isn’t there a chance that trying to run over someone with their car is a bad choice in this circumstance? Sure, there’s a chance. Do you have any facts to indicate this, to counter the facts that indicate otherwise? Is it the video that shows other pedestrians and drivers being endangered? Is the audio that indicates, albeit crudely, that the two cops recognize that attempts at a hands-off, stay-in-the-car-and-give-orders approach hadn’t worked? Is it Mr. Mann’s history of mental illness? Is it the toxicology report showing that he had been using meth? Is it the fact that he had a knife? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I never thought you were possibly an unkind and inhumane person before this post – I always thought you were just a good guy who really thought about things differently than me. I’m sad to see that I might have been wrong. ☹ It’s the Pit. If you can’t handle snark, go off to GD. Although I stand by my assertion - claiming a meth-head maniac with a knife charging thru the streets isn’t an imminent danger is stupid. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9518 "2016-10-05T17:54:35Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So, you are able to differentiate someone being “drug-addled” vs being mentally ill? There is no need for such a differentiation - Mann was both. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9519 "2016-10-05T18:03:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There is no need for such a differentiation - Mann was both. > > Regards, > Shodan “Very sad life. Probably have very sad death. But, at least there is symmetry.” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9520 "2016-10-05T18:04:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … As far as the use of the car, seems to me the cops decided to use it as armor to bring down a fleeing suspect who had a knife rather than trying to tackle him and sustain stabbings themselves. Makes sense to me. > > And they likely knew from radio transmissions that the guy had already assaulted the first pair of officers, was running away, was dangerous, and was determined to continue to be…wait for it…non-compliant. Funny thing about the video: the suspect was _right next to_ the first police vehicle when the second one showed up. That is a really odd definition of “fleeing”. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9521 "2016-10-05T18:11:45Z")
Okay then, in that case I’ll amend my comment about radio transmission from fleeing to belligerent, assaultive, and determinedly non-compliant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=475) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=477)