# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 478
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9542 "2016-10-05T19:48:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Ah, tasers don’t work if you are holding a knife. I guess it makes sense, it being metal and all. Err… actually that doesn’t make sense. > > Could you explain why tasers wouldn’t work on someone with a knife? When did Tasering become so popular with the “cops are evil” crowd? There are literally people slapping each other on the back for “lecturing” me on “defending the indefensible” comparing me to people who blame rape victims and claiming that I am wrong and fucked up for claiming that tasering was warranted in the Terence Crutcher case. > [@](#): > > I’m trying to keep up. First PCP was the supercriminal drug, now it’s meth. So, you are saying that someone on meth is immune from tasers? > > What other drugs give you superpowers? With respect to PCP, I found this on the board: > **[Can PCP make someone inured to pain?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=165271)** > > I recall hearing a story of someone who was on (or overdosed?) PCP and in an effort to apprehend him for one reason or another the police shot and hit him 6 times with little effect. He also was able to fight off five police officers which tried to... Special K is another drug that is supposed to be able to make you immune to pain. They were both developed at anesthetics that can be used in surgery so it can in fact immunize you to pain. [http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/phencyclidine.htm](http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/phencyclidine.htm) “Formerly used as a surgical anesthetic, however, there is no current legitimate medical use in humans. Used as a veterinary anesthetic or tranquilizer. Recreationally used as a psychedelic and hallucinogen.” I have never taken PCP and some people in this thread claim to have taken it and attest that it does not have this anesthetic effect. Perhaps it requires a particular dosage that you don’t really achieve unless you have developed a tolerance for PCP. But meth does not have the same numbing effects of cocaine and certainly doesn’t have the anesthetic effects of PCP. Meth makes you irrational due to lack of sleep (add dehydration and malnutrition for someone that is really strung out), it makes you twitchy but I have not noticed that it gives you any super powers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9543 "2016-10-05T19:50:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I never thought you were possibly an unkind and inhumane person before this post – I always thought you were just a good guy who really thought about things differently than me. I’m sad to see that I might have been wrong. ☹ Or he’s backed himself into a corner (as we have all done from time to time) and rather than de-escalating the situation, you have been pushing him further and further into that corner. Its time to taser him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9544 "2016-10-05T19:55:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Tasers require that you be fairly close to the subject before tasering, most likely well within range to be charged at and stabbed before you can fire it. Additionally, tasering doesn’t always have an effect, especially on drug-addled maniacs, of which this guy was one, meaning the officer would still be within range and stab-able after firing the taser. Tasers create involuntary neuromuscular incapacitation. It is not 100% reliable but if you have more than one officer, if one officers tasers the suspect and the suspect comtinues to advance, then the other officer unloads his weapon while the first officer backs up and draws his weapon in case the first officer doesn’t stop the suspect. I think its part of the Taser training that all officers get. If you are alone, then use your gun. If there’s several of you then tasers are a real option. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9545 "2016-10-05T19:57:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So for all the times in which knife-wielders were tased (or otherwise dealt with non-lethally), the cops were wrong and should have shot them? Probably thousands of times. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9546 "2016-10-05T20:00:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Maybe you should demonstrate your command of ‘fact’ vs. ‘opinion’ before you start calling other people liars. Why? If you’re a liar, you’re a liar, no matter what I do. And you’re a liar. You lie in this very post. To wit: > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > We’ve had trolls here, but we’ve only had one person, who when a poster confessed that he’d been raped as a child, called that poster a liar because it didn’t fit his narrative. Nope, this is a lie. Apart from that, take it to the Paterno thread. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > And then you have the nerve to lecture people on civility. Of course. One need not please you in order to bemoan the crassness, vulgarity and overall lack of class that has come to define life in America over the last 50 years. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9547 "2016-10-05T20:08:10Z")
Hey **Starving Artist** , should a black man be shot if he has a cardboard tube in his hand? He could just be following your advice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9548 "2016-10-05T20:10:03Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Hey **Starving Artist** , should a black man be shot if he has a cardboard tube in his hand? > > He could just be following your advice. What if he’s using it to touch the handle of his vehicle? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9549 "2016-10-05T20:17:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Tasers create involuntary neuromuscular incapacitation. It is not 100% reliable but if you have more than one officer, if one officers tasers the suspect and the suspect comtinues to advance, then the other officer unloads his weapon while the first officer backs up and draws his weapon in case the first officer doesn’t stop the suspect. > > I think its part of the Taser training that all officers get. If you are alone, then use your gun. If there’s several of you then tasers are a real option. Thanks. > [@elucidator](#): > > Hey, you know what would totally win your point and embarrass your detractors! Post them both, so we can compare! Nah, it would do neither. Experience with the board shows that it would either be ignored or endless quibbling would ensue as to whether his hands were really up even as he reached for the door handle. > [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, wait, are you about to get real busy? As a matter of fact I am. Just like I do around this time every day. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9550 "2016-10-05T20:17:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Did you happen to read the quote I cited, about the drivers of other stopped vehicles, and pedestrians, on the busy thoroughfare along which Mr. Mann was attempting to flee? > > I would phrase it as saying that I am at least as certain that using lethal force to stop a drug-addled maniac with a knife is appropriate as you are that saying “fuck this guy” and “I’m going to run him over” demonstrates a callous eagerness to kill or injure. Especially after de-escalation has been shown not to work.Sure, there’s a chance. Do you have any facts to indicate this, to counter the facts that indicate otherwise? > > Is it the video that shows other pedestrians and drivers being endangered? Well, off the top of my head, if it’s accurate that there were other pedestrians and drivers being endangered by the man with a knife, that would mean that the two driving cops were attempting to run over a man within close distance of other pedestrians and drivers. That seems inappropriately dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9551 "2016-10-05T20:19:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What if he’s using it to touch the handle of his vehicle? That’s a bad touch. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9552 "2016-10-05T20:20:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Why? If you’re a liar, you’re a liar, no matter what Are you displaying introspection here? > [@](#): > > Nope, this is a lie. No, it happened. Maybe you need to go re-read the thread? I bet you re-read it a lot, late at night… > [@](#): > > Apart from that, take it to the Paterno thread. You want to keep your rape arguments consolidated? > [@](#): > > Of course. One need not please you in order to bemoan the crassness, vulgarity and overall lack of class that has come to define life in America over the last 50 years. You’re not in a position to discuss lack of class, except as a cautionary example. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9553 "2016-10-05T20:55:49Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Well, off the top of my head, if it’s accurate that there were other pedestrians and drivers being endangered by the man with a knife, that would mean that the two driving cops were attempting to run over a man within close distance of other pedestrians and drivers. That seems inappropriately dangerous. As opposed to the danger of continuing the unsuccessful de-escalation. Or cornering him against a fence, and then shooting him, which is what happened. There’s going to be danger from the nut with the knife no matter what. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9554 "2016-10-05T21:27:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > When did Tasering become so popular with the “cops are evil” crowd? There are literally people slapping each other on the back for “lecturing” me on “defending the indefensible” comparing me to people who blame rape victims and claiming that I am wrong and fucked up for claiming that tasering was warranted in the Terence Crutcher case. I’d like to see who you think is the “cops are evil” crowd. I think most of us think cops could use more training, better resources, and better pay. If that means we think that they are evil, I’m not sure what evil is anymore. In any case, tasers are less lethal than guns. I agree that a person waving a knife about in a crowded area should be brought under control. Maybe just talking to and reasoning with someone in that state isn’t going to work, so incapacitating them non-lethally is the next best option. As far as TC and tasering, I don’t know that tasering him would have been entirely warranted, but few would have complained if that was all that come of it. He would have been upset, maybe, but he’d be alive. No one would have ever heard his name if he’d been tased and processed. It’s that they shot and killed him that makes ALL of the actions that day subject to extra scrutiny. > [@](#): > > With respect to PCP, I found this on the board: > > [Can PCP make someone inured to pain? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=165271) > > Special K is another drug that is supposed to be able to make you immune to pain. They were both developed at anesthetics that can be used in surgery so it can in fact immunize you to pain. > > [http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/phencyclidine.htm](http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/phencyclidine.htm) > > “Formerly used as a surgical anesthetic, however, there is no current legitimate medical use in humans. Used as a veterinary anesthetic or tranquilizer. Recreationally used as a psychedelic and hallucinogen.” > > I have never taken PCP and some people in this thread claim to have taken it and attest that it does not have this anesthetic effect. Perhaps it requires a particular dosage that you don’t really achieve unless you have developed a tolerance for PCP. > > But meth does not have the same numbing effects of cocaine and certainly doesn’t have the anesthetic effects of PCP. Meth makes you irrational due to lack of sleep (add dehydration and malnutrition for someone that is really strung out), it makes you twitchy but I have not noticed that it gives you any super powers. My point to shodan was that none of these drugs should preclude the attempt of tasering rather than shooting. Even being immune to pain doesn’t stop the taser from completely overriding your nervous system. If there is a drug out there that makes you immune from tasering, then there could be a reason to shoot first, but I have not heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9555 "2016-10-05T21:54:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As opposed to the danger of continuing the unsuccessful de-escalation. Or cornering him against a fence, and then shooting him, which is what happened. > > There’s going to be danger from the nut with the knife no matter what. So why is adding to that danger by the police a good solution to the problem? If no matter what happens the man with the knife is dangerous, what advantage is provided by the police\* also\* acting in a dangerous manner, by risking the other pedestrians and drivers present? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9556 "2016-10-06T00:52:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know the de-escalation wasn’t working? The first pair of cops didn’t make the choice to use deadly force. Why did the second pair know better? > > And even if your timeline is 100% correct, as long as no one was in imminent danger, then absolutely they should have kept trying to de-escalate. “No one’s in danger right now, but this guy still is being weird and could conceivably be a danger in the future, so we should kill him” isn’t okay for me. Why couldn’t they keep talking to him? …last year I was at Wellington Hospital after having to admit my dad (he’s fine) and we were waiting in the waiting area when we watched a situation unfold. A couple of Security Orderlies were chatting to a guy outside. (we could see the whole thing through the very large windows) It looked like the orderlies were on a break. Then the guy they were chatting to out-of-the-blue took a swing at one of the Orderlies. A real big “haymaker.” (everybody in the waiting room let out a very loud collective “whoah!”) The orderly looked like he was expecting it and just took a step back: and then went back to talking to him. They didn’t call the police. I then noticed that there were doctors and nurses staged strategically around the corner, and that something much bigger than I thought was playing out in front of me. They chatted to this guy for about an hour. Even shared a smoke with him. And about an hour later all three of them walked to the entrance of the building, the guy sat on a wheelchair, and they took him to one of the wards. These weren’t even police. They were security. De-escalation requires a certain mind-set. It can take time. The goal isn’t to force compliance. The goal is to get the situation under control without anyone, including the suspect, getting hurt. When the guy took a swing at the security orderly they were well within their rights to tackle him, hold him down, call police and get him thrown in jail. But the guy didn’t need a jail cell. He needed medical help. The one thing I’ve noticed with nearly all the video footage I’ve seen over the last year is that US police are in such a rush. Look how this situation escalates: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bDXdTP4-TAI/hqdefault.jpg "Police Slam Pregnant Woman Talking Back (Graphic Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDXdTP4-TAI) (Note: the white woman at the start of the video was not asked her name or for ID, and that the officer had already assumed the other lady was going to give an opposing story) There was no need at all to force compliance here. He says he was going to give her two minutes to “find out whether or not she had to give her name” and then 15 seconds later he is arresting her. That is just piss-poor policing: but it is representative of much of what we see in all of the videos that have been featured in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9557 "2016-10-06T12:10:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As opposed to the danger of continuing the unsuccessful de-escalation. Or cornering him against a fence, and then shooting him, which is what happened. > > There’s going to be danger from the nut with the knife no matter what. > > Regards, > Shodan So why didn’t the first cops kill him? They were right there. Their car was next to him when the second pair of cops arrived and immediately tried to run him over. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9558 "2016-10-06T12:16:08Z")
In contrast, [here](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/video-shows-british-cops-attacked-angry-man-knife-article-1.2308036) is how British police deal with a mentally ill person waving a knife. Why are the British police wrong to not kill him, and American police are right to kill him? Are British cops just braver and more skilled? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9559 "2016-10-06T13:31:42Z")
You know, if I saw a movie about an online commentator who gleefully defended police for driving over a pedestrian while saying things like “fuck this guy” and “let’s get him,” I’d be annoyed at how transparent the screenwriter was in trying to set up the commentator as an amoral scumbag who deserved everything that was about to happen to him. But this is really happening. Woohoo I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9560 "2016-10-06T13:59:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Shodan** says I’m stupid for questioning the attempted-running-over and successful shooting. > > I don’t get how someone can be so certain about these kinds of things. I’ve been wondering the same thing about some of the police bashers. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9561 "2016-10-06T14:01:12Z")
Because our ‘Law and Order’ friends in this thread are heartless bullies and cowards who think ‘criminals’ and ‘bad people’ deserve to be killed. There’s no sugar coating that. We’ve had people in this thread try to argue that a cop should just plain shoot a person if the situation is taking too long to resolve and they have other things to do. We’ve had them argue that people on drugs should be shot out of hand because they’re too dangerous to even talk to. We’ve had them excuse shooting a fucking mental health worker trying to talk someone down, because they’re cops and it is their duty to resolve the situation and shooting is always a great option. And then they accuse us of being anti-police and wanting police to die because we think it shouldn’t work that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=477) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=479)