# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 479
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9562 "2016-10-06T14:19:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What directions? Directions to stop or get on the ground. It is not likely that half a dozen cops DIDN’T order Terence Crutcher to stop before he reached his car. Do you think it is likely that an order to stop was not given? Or are you saying that there is some remote possibility that this did not happen? or are you “just asking questions” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9563 "2016-10-06T14:20:31Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > So why is adding to that danger by the police a good solution to the problem? If no matter what happens the man with the knife is dangerous, what advantage is provided by the police\* also\* acting in a dangerous manner, by risking the other pedestrians and drivers present? Because the police had to act to reduce the danger. There were no safe options remaining, and therefore they took the option that (in their judgment) had the greatest chance of eliminating the danger. The first cops tried to de-escalate. It didn’t work. Everyone on the scene recognized that - the first pair, the second pair, everyone. So they took it to the next level, by trying to hit Mann with the car. This is (marginally) safer, apparently in the opinion of the officers on the scene than shooting Mann from a moving car, or trying to Taser him from a moving car. That didn’t work either. So they managed to corner him against a fence. He still refused to drop the knife and stop presenting a threat to the officers and the public. So they shot him. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So why didn’t the first cops kill him? They were right there. Their car was next to him when the second pair of cops arrived and immediately tried to run him over What’s wrong with you? You are not usually like this. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Shodan says I’m stupid for questioning the attempted-running-over and successful shooting. Your statement that a knife-wielding meth-head nutjob running thru a busy thoroughfare doesn’t present any imminent danger is what is stupid. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9564 "2016-10-06T14:22:27Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > See, here’s the problem: the police _cause_ riots. I have observed it. They find themselves very uncomfortable having to deal with large protest marches, especially unscheduled ones that have not been orchestrated with permits and paperwork. So they show up in riot gear, raising the overall tension of the situation. Then one officer gets mad at one of the marchers, gets into an altercation, and that sets off the flying tear gas canisters, flash-bangs and general mayhem. Most protesters typically do not want to get caught up in a riot, but having a riot makes it much easier for the police to act in the manner they are familiar with. Is THAT what you are saying happened in each of these cases? Or even MOST of these cases? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9565 "2016-10-06T14:25:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Directions to stop or get on the ground. > > It is not likely that half a dozen cops DIDN’T order Terence Crutcher to stop before he reached his car. > > Do you think it is likely that an order to stop was not given? Or are you saying that there is some remote possibility that this did not happen? > > or are you “just asking questions” Just the one question: Do you have any fucking evidence at all as to what was _actually_ said, or are you just pulling it out of your ass? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9566 "2016-10-06T14:38:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There were no safe options remaining Do you believe this or are you trolling? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9567 "2016-10-06T14:42:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because the police had to act to reduce the danger. There were no safe options remaining, and therefore they took the option that (in their judgment) had the greatest chance of eliminating the danger. > > The first cops tried to de-escalate. It didn’t work. Everyone on the scene recognized that - the first pair, the second pair, everyone. Cite that everyone recognized that? Cite that they were done trying to de-escalate? > [@](#): > > So they took it to the next level, by trying to hit Mann with the car. The second pair of cops arrived on the scene and tried to hit Mann with their car. > [@](#): > > This is (marginally) safer, apparently in the opinion of the officers on the scene than shooting Mann from a moving car, or trying to Taser him from a moving car. That didn’t work either. So they managed to corner him against a fence. He still refused to drop the knife and stop presenting a threat to the officers and the public. So they shot him. > What’s wrong with you? You are not usually like this. That’s the sequence of events, as I understand it – the first cops were trying to de-escalate, and the 2nd pair of cops arrived and tried to run him over, then shot him. > [@](#): > > Your statement that a knife-wielding meth-head nutjob running thru a busy thoroughfare doesn’t present any imminent danger is what is stupid. > > Regards, > Shodan When the second pair of cops arrived he was standing near the first cops’ patrol car. He didn’t start running (in the video, at least) until the second cops arrived and tried to hit him with their car. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9568 "2016-10-06T16:19:00Z")
“Your kid has measles. Should have got the shot.” “Nunh-uh! Look at this bump, right here.” “This one?” “No, the one next to it. Look close. It could be a mosquito bite…” “What to do you mean, ‘mosquito bite’?” “Well, there’s a video, shows it could be a mosquito bite. But that video was edited by the media to make it look like measles.” “Well, then, show me the original video!” “Can’t, all we got is the edited one. But I saw the real one, and its a mosquito bite.” “You can’t produce it, so how does that prove anything?” “I saw it. And it was discussed, if you didn’t see when it was discussed, that’s not my problem! It was discussed!” “Wait! WTF? Are you gonna try and say they are _all_ mosquito bites? There’s hundreds of them, its measles!” “No, I’ve totally proved that this bump is a mosquito bite. Other bumps, who knows, but I’ve proved that you dishonestly say they are measles, but that’s not true! So you’re a liar, so its not measles!” “And this one, and that one, right next to it!?!” “Acne.” “Acne! Your kid is six years old, since when do six year old kids get acne?” “You can’t prove it never happened.” “They are all over the place, plus the kid has a fever!” “Malaria. From the mosquito bite…” TL:DR There is a big, fat, huge problem, all across the country, with police interactions with black Americans. Intense nitpicking about one example will not erase all the others. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9569 "2016-10-06T17:03:09Z")
I can’t even believe this one. [Cop’s 3 year old daughter dead after being left in patrol car for 4 hours.](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/3-year-old-dies-after-being-left-alone-in-mother%E2%80%99s-patrol-car-for-hours/ar-BBx2r3M?li=BBnbfcL) I guess I expect cop’s to have better sense than leave a small child in the car. _But why the fuck was the child in her patrol car???_ > [@](#): > > Barker and Ladner at first were suspended without pay as authorities investigated the case. A representative of the Long Beach Police Department confirmed to The Post that both Barker and Ladner had been terminated Tuesday but would not comment further. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9570 "2016-10-06T17:12:35Z")
> [@](#): > > the car was running with the air conditioner on One hell of a way to protest insufficient air-conditioning for officers’ patrol cars. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9571 "2016-10-06T17:20:47Z")
[Why you can’t just assume that the police are saying and/or doing things “by the book”.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/09/20/cops-accidentally-record-themselves-fabricating-charges-against-protester-lawsuit-says/?utm_term=.cba0223ef784) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9572 "2016-10-06T17:30:36Z")
Billy Jack was right. > [@](#): > > When policemen break the law, then there isn’t any law - just a fight for survival. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9573 "2016-10-06T17:40:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because the police had to act to reduce the danger. There were no safe options remaining, and therefore they took the option that (in their judgment) had the greatest chance of eliminating the danger. By adding an additional danger? That doesn’t make sense. If the man with the knife was within imminent reach of people he could harm, so too were the cops driving at him. It’s not “eliminating the danger” to create yet more danger - and as you yourself say, this course of action didn’t succeed in eliminating the original danger. Overall, this act made the entire situation more dangerous. > [@](#): > > The first cops tried to de-escalate. It didn’t work. Everyone on the scene recognized that - the first pair, the second pair, everyone. So they took it to the next level, by trying to hit Mann with the car. That doesn’t fit in with your explanation of events. The first pair didn’t decide to hit Mann with a car; not being in a car, that would be tricky, but per you they don’t seem to have taken any steps to introduce a new danger to protect others from the man with the knife. Those two didn’t take it “to the next level”. > [@](#): > > This is (marginally) safer, apparently in the opinion of the officers on the scene than shooting Mann from a moving car, or trying to Taser him from a moving car. You seem to be forgetting the two officers present on foot. The options are not limited to the options of the two officers in the car; moreover there is no requirement that they stay in the car in order to explore more options, nor is there any requirement that they do not stop the car in order to explore more options. Saying that the police thought that it was safer than two other dangerous options is not a useful point to make unless those are the\* only\* two other options. I’m also interested in your use of “marginally” there. I am as much not a cop as I am not a lawyer, but the idea that the police decided the best course of action to take was one that was only marginally safer than shooting from a moving car does not make it seem like a wise plan. > [@](#): > > That didn’t work either. So they managed to corner him against a fence. He still refused to drop the knife and stop presenting a threat to the officers and the public. So they shot him. Cornered to a fence, he was a threat? Did they not corner him very well? It seems like these escalation plans, that added \*more \*danger to the situation, also didn’t work very well, either. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9574 "2016-10-06T18:08:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > In that post I’m protesting **Damuri Ajashi** ’s shitty attitude, specifically how he believes everything the police say, even when the evidence shows they’ve lied. Then he excuses the lie, because they are police. I’m not sure how that isn’t clear to some people; thanks for the opportunity to clarify. Oh, then you DO think that the tasering was justified? Then WTF are you whining about? Are you just taking offense to HOW I’m saying that the tasering was justified? in what way am I just believing everything the police say? I am specifically referencing the video as support for what the police are saying. What evidence do you have that the police lied? Because AFAICT, all you have is a preliminary report by a newspaper not a police statement. Or are you talking about stuff that Officer Shelby said about stuff that happened BEFORE the video took place? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9575 "2016-10-06T18:10:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > **Starving Artist** got his facts wrong? That’s a huge surprise. And upon learning that he got his facts wrong he didn’t bother to update his opinion? Another huge surprise. > > This is the kind of thought process that leads to a man claiming that the physical act of rape is impossible. Can someone actually link the post where SA says that rape is not physically possible? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9576 "2016-10-06T18:12:16Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Starvey isn’t exactly increasing his own credibility here. We should probably just ignore future posts, since he can’t and won’t back them up with anything other than stupid. Can anyone cite where SA says that rape is not physically possible between a man and a boy? Because that is a pretty extraordinary claim. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9577 "2016-10-06T18:19:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When **Starvy** says T_H_E M_E_D_I_A manipulated the video, would that include all the pro-police websites, too? Were they in on this conspiracy, or do they have a copy of the “real” video we can watch? I think we all saw the same video, we all just interpreted it differently. We all saw Terence Crutcher approach the driver’s side door of car with his hands raised. We all saw the cops track him the entire time with their guns drawn. We saw him lower his hands (in what looked to me like an attempt to open the door, with no particular haste or superspeed), we all saw him drop. It is not entirely clear to me when the taser was fired and if that caused him to drop his hands or when the gun was fired and if THAT was what caused him to lower his hands. But what was clear to me was that he kept walking towards his car and the police testimony that he was being ordered to stop is credible and consistent with what I saw on the video and therefore the tasering was probably justified and I think pretty much any reasonable jury would agree that the tasering was justified. Despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that the cops are all lying liars that lie. Despite the inclination of some to hold cops to a guilty until proven innocent standard, the cops that fired the taser is entitled to the same benefit of reasonable doubt as you or me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9578 "2016-10-06T18:26:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think we all saw the same video, we all just interpreted it differently. > > We all saw Terence Crutcher approach the driver’s side door of car with his hands raised. We all saw the cops track him the entire time with their guns drawn. We saw him lower his hands (in what looked to me like an attempt to open the door, with no particular haste or superspeed), we all saw him drop. It is not entirely clear to me when the taser was fired and if that caused him to drop his hands or when the gun was fired and if THAT was what caused him to lower his hands. > > But what was clear to me was that he kept walking towards his car and the police testimony that he was being ordered to stop is credible and consistent with what I saw on the video and therefore the tasering was probably justified and I think pretty much any reasonable jury would agree that the tasering was justified. > > Despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that the cops are all lying liars that lie. Despite the inclination of some to hold cops to a guilty until proven innocent standard, the cops that fired the taser is entitled to the same benefit of reasonable doubt as you or me. The police testimony? What did each officer say, and is the word of the hysterically deaf shooter something anyone can really rely upon? ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9579 "2016-10-06T18:29:42Z")
"Wait. WHAT?!?! So stress deafness is completely ordinary and normal?!?!? When I google it and all I get is that cops don’t wear enough ear protection so they gradually go deaf over time. You got a cite for that? because it really sounds a lot like panic to me." - Damuri It took me about two minutes of Googling (auditory exclusion and critical incidents) to find two separate articles stating auditory exclusion took/takes place in some degree in “more than 85%” and “88%”, respectively, of police shootings. So, yes, its completely ordinary and normal. Have you ever been in a situation where you were looking at something that placed you in imminent fear of your life? I mean _really_ thought you might die. Maybe a mugger pointing a gun at you? Or a car heading at you on the wrong side of a divided highway. Or skydiving for the first time? I’d be surprised if you could recall hearing what was playing on your car radio or Ipod or what the jump instructor said as you were falling. It is, quite literally, human nature to focus on the threat visually to the exclusion of other senses. Its not the roar of the lion, its the teeth that will get you. I’d invite any combat vets to chime in here. (I’m not one nor I have ever been shot at.) Do you remember clearly everything that happened during that first firefight? Was your opponent less than 21’ away, as in most police shootings? The more experience we have in highly stressful situations the better we get at handling them. That’s why we do force-on-force training. Unfortunately, not enough, as its time and manpower intensive to do correctly and training is usually the first thing to go when money gets tight. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9580 "2016-10-06T18:37:05Z")
IF she pulls off the “stress deafness” crap, then I hope every single unarmed person(or their surviving families) that have had guns drawn on them and or fired by police for “failure to follow orders” files suit. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/9581 "2016-10-06T18:53:06Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > By adding an additional danger? That doesn’t make sense. If the man with the knife was within imminent reach of people he could harm, so too were the cops driving at him. It’s not “eliminating the danger” to create yet more danger - and as you yourself say, this course of action didn’t succeed in eliminating the original danger. Overall, this act made the entire situation more dangerous. Maybe I didn’t express myself clearly, or I don’t understand. Mann presented an ongoing threat. The police were obligated to take whatever steps were available to eliminate the threat. De-escalation didn’t work - Mann ran away and continued to present a threat. The danger to the public of trying to hit him with a car was less, in the immediate judgment of the cops, than the overall threat of letting him run around with the knife and continuing to try to get him to drop the knife. > [@](#): > > The first pair didn’t decide to hit Mann with a car; not being in a car, that would be tricky, but per you they don’t seem to have taken any steps to introduce a new danger to protect others from the man with the knife. AFAICT the first pair were in a car, in which they sat while trying to order Mann to drop his knife. Which he didn’t do, thus continuing to present a threat to the public. They could have gotten out of their car, which would have increased the risk to themselves. Knives are dangerous. > [@](#): > > The options are not limited to the options of the two officers in the car; moreover there is no requirement that they stay in the car in order to explore more options, nor is there any requirement that they do not stop the car in order to explore more options. > > Saying that the police thought that it was safer than two other dangerous options is not a useful point to make unless those are the\* only\* two other options. Again, maybe I don’t understand. The cops could have stayed in the car, and tried to hit Mann with their car. This would somewhat increase the risk to other drivers, decrease the risk to the officers, and (probably) eliminating the risk to everyone else. They tried it, it didn’t work. It didn’t injure any cops, didn’t injure anyone else, and didn’t eliminate the threat posed by Mr. Mann. The cops could have stayed in the car and tried to continue to order Mann to drop the knife. They did try that, and it didn’t work - Mann ran, thus continuing the risk to the public and to any cops that might get out of their car, and didn’t eliminate the threat Mr. Mann posed. The cops could have stayed in their car, followed Mann, and tried to Tase him. How possible that is, I couldn’t say - I don’t know how easy or difficult it is to deploy a Taser on a moving target from a moving platform. I suspect it is not very easy - the differing rates of speed make it likely to miss, pull the barb out, or whatever. The cops could have stayed in their car and tried to shoot Mann. Same objections as trying to Tase him, but more so. Missing a bullet is much more serious than a missed Taser barb - friendly fire is a common source of death or injury in many firefights. The cops could have cornered Mann, got out of the car, and either Taser’ed him, or shot him. Shooting him is what they did, and it worked, so to speak - no more threat to the public, no friendly fire casualties. I suppose Taser-ing him was an option, but as I previously mentioned, a knife is deadly force, and calls (IMO) for something more, and more certain, than a less-than-lethal option like a Taser. You “don’t bring a knife to a gun fight”, and you don’t bring a Taser to a knife fight. I have never trained with or used or received a Taser. I have trained in knife disarms. And almost the first thing my _sensei_ said was that a knife disarm is a low-percentage move - the last, worst choice. Massad Ayoob is a martial arts writer, former cop, and H2H instructor. He told an anecdote about a cop with some martial arts experience, confronted by a drunk who pulled a small knife. The cop pulled his weapon. Someone said, “A big tough cop like you needs a gun to take a little knife away from a drunk?” The cop put away his knife and tried to disarm the drunk. One stab later, and guess who was lying on the ground bleeding out. Possibly apocryphal, but one drill I have experience with is trying to do knife disarms against some one with a Magic Marker. Best-case outcome of that drill was that all the ink was on your hands and shoulders, and none on your torso, face, or neck. And that usually wasn’t the outcome. I don’t mean to imply that the cops carefully weighed all the options and chose the best possible option, and no possible criticism could possibly be valid. But “[detached reflection cannot be demanded in the face of an uplifted knife](https://justice4dennypetitt.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/detached-reflection-cannot-be-demanded-in-the-presence-of-an-uplifted-knife/)”, especially when that knife is in the hands of a meth-addled looney. But it’s been months, and even after nitpicking every damn thing, the worst that can be found is that one of the cops said something insensitive about hitting said looney with a car. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=478) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=480)